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Hi everyone.

I've had a collection of old RT metal terminators shamed away for years and I'm lookig to reimagine them a bit. See i have a Raven Guard force with lots of scouts and fast attack and the termies never seemed to fit the fluff. So much as I loved them they never made it into paint as Ravens Guard.

So now I'd like to build a small force around them. No intention of playing just build paint and appreciate.
The idea is a chapter who specialise in holding an objective for the longest time with a minimal but impossibly stubourn force. Terminators, dreads, anything that is extremely tough and hard to shift.

Any ideas what I could add to this squad to make a sensible looking force in that respect?

From a fluff POV, any of the sons of Dorn fill the bill. If you have retro models, just go all-in and paint them as Crimson Fists.

Iron Hands would be another option, and they have the 8th edition mechanics to back them up.

Dreads and Terminators? Go Salamanders.

I do love the Imperial Fists but I'd be mad to take on all that yellow. I know I wouldn't do it well. I don't have the technology I think.

I might make up my own founding of Dornlings.

But what about force options? is there anything else that says tough nut to crack quite like a termie or a dread?

If you are going fo a dug in, siege like army, there are a few options. Especially if it’s more for display than play.

Thunderfire cannons. In the past, the techmarine let you fortify terrain features. He can’t do that anymore, but it’s still the kind of heavy gun you’d want dug in with you on the gunline.

You could go with the more robust tanks.

If you want fluffy stuff that doesn’t necessarily have 40k rules, check out things like 30k breacher squads.

Honestly, a lot depends on what you like the look of. If you go by the fluff, every marine is a stalwart bastion; unyielding in the face of insurmountable odds.

 Nevelon wrote:
If you are going fo a dug in, siege like army, there are a few options. Especially if it’s more for display than play.

Thunderfire cannons. In the past, the techmarine let you fortify terrain features. He can’t do that anymore, but it’s still the kind of heavy gun you’d want dug in with you on the gunline.

You could go with the more robust tanks.

If you want fluffy stuff that doesn’t necessarily have 40k rules, check out things like 30k breacher squads.

Honestly, a lot depends on what you like the look of. If you go by the fluff, every marine is a stalwart bastion; unyielding in the face of insurmountable odds.

And if you go by game rules everything short of a Knight is made out of cardboard and oily rags.

 theCrowe wrote:
I do love the Imperial Fists but I'd be mad to take on all that yellow. I know I wouldn't do it well. I don't have the technology I think.

I might make up my own founding of Dornlings.

But what about force options? is there anything else that says tough nut to crack quite like a termie or a dread?

Land Raider. Dreads are only tough to crack on infantry scale [at which point, so is a Rhino]. Scale up, and have them ride a Land Raider, one of the toughest (second only to the Monolith) non-super heavy nuts to crack. Terminators + Land Raider is also a classic combo of ye olden days.

This sounds like wisdom. Given they're old RT termies I may have to find an old Mk1 land raider to restore. Yikes!

Monoliths are not tougher than a land raider.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Monoliths are not tougher than a land raider.

???

I don't have a Necron Codex, but I was under the impression that it was:
14/14/14 Ignores Crew Stunned/Shaken & Meltaguns don't get their bonus
vs.
14/14/14 Can fire 1 more gun than otherwise

and that it now is:
T8 W20 Sv3+ Heal 1 wound per turn
vs.
T8 W16 Sv2+

Both of which generally seem to indicate that the Monolith has and had an edge of survivability over a Land Raider. It doesn't make either good right now, but I don't think the OP was intending to play with the Terminators & Land Raider.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Monoliths are not tougher than a land raider.

???

I don't have a Necron Codex, but I was under the impression that it was:
14/14/14 Ignores Crew Stunned/Shaken & Meltaguns don't get their bonus
vs.
14/14/14 Can fire 1 more gun than otherwise

and that it now is:
T8 W20 Sv3+ Heal 1 wound per turn
vs.
T8 W16 Sv2+

Both of which generally seem to indicate that the Monolith has and had an edge of survivability over a Land Raider. It doesn't make either good right now, but I don't think the OP was intending to play with the Terminators & Land Raider.

Against small arms, that 2+ halves damage. Plus the Chapter Tactics can easily give a nice defensive buff to the Land Raider (such as a 6+ FNP or always in cover outside of 12") while the Monolith gets jack.

Probably the big thing is that the Monolith is TITANIC, so it takes double damage from Macro Weapons.

Admittedly, I did not run the math on this (and probably won't, given the point of this thread) but I'm pretty sure the Monolith is less durable to most weapons than the Land Raider.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Monoliths are not tougher than a land raider.

???

I don't have a Necron Codex, but I was under the impression that it was:
14/14/14 Ignores Crew Stunned/Shaken & Meltaguns don't get their bonus
vs.
14/14/14 Can fire 1 more gun than otherwise

and that it now is:
T8 W20 Sv3+ Heal 1 wound per turn
vs.
T8 W16 Sv2+

Both of which generally seem to indicate that the Monolith has and had an edge of survivability over a Land Raider. It doesn't make either good right now, but I don't think the OP was intending to play with the Terminators & Land Raider.

Against small arms, that 2+ halves damage. Plus the Chapter Tactics can easily give a nice defensive buff to the Land Raider (such as a 6+ FNP or always in cover outside of 12") while the Monolith gets jack.

Probably the big thing is that the Monolith is TITANIC, so it takes double damage from Macro Weapons.

Admittedly, I did not run the math on this (and probably won't, given the point of this thread) but I'm pretty sure the Monolith is less durable to most weapons than the Land Raider.

Okay, so uh, the weapons that are ineffective against either and comprise a minority of incoming fire or are exclusively forgeworld and so big they one-shot either anyway are more effective against the Monolith. 2.5% chance versus 1.2% chance of a guardman hurting it is an incredibly huge nerf to the Monolith's survivability. And then it heals off the Guardsman's one wound.

On average, the Monolith takes exactly as many Lascannon shots [the range extends to most AT weapons in general use in the game. Land Raider does a little better against missile launchers, monolith does better against meltaguns] to take down as a Land Raider, plus it heals a little bit, so I think the "toughness ball" is in the Monolith's court by a slight margin.

I think this entire discussion might be moot though, because I forgot about the Riptide, which with a T7, W14 and Sv 2+/3++ is tougher than either before considering shield drones [and, for bonus points, is also the only one that requires a meaningfully different number of hits from stupidly big guns to kill, since it has an invul save!].




Either way, back to the topic, I wouldn't pick a Land Raider for competitive list, but it's the classic ride for a Terminator squad and was formerly one of the toughest vehicles you could acquire short of a super-heavy, which would be perfect for a hold out at all costs force of classic terminators.

I'll agree with the Inquisitor Lord-Land Raiders are, for what you're gunning to do, a great fit.

I'll trust you on the math too.