Death Frenzy, amount of attacks. Wulfen.

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**Type40**

Death frenzy allows you to make a single attack with one of your models weapons ?
or does the ability allow you to attack with your amount of attacks ?

I am confused by what the ability means be "you can attack with that model before removing with it"
I know what AN attack is (like with the ancient it allows you to make a single attack)
I know what it means when it says to "fight"
But what does it mean whne it says, "you can attack"
is it one attack ? or is it telling me to attack by making all my attacks my model can make ?

Edit: I mean the Wulfen ability not the Tyranid one, sorry for confusion

**DeathReaper**

Tyranid Death Frenzy strat says "it can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase, or fight as if it were your Fight phase before it is removed from the battlefield."

So the model fights as if it were your Fight phase. so all attacks

http://wahapedia.ru/wh40k8ed/factions/tyranids/

**Type40**

I meant the wulfen ability not the tyranid one

sorry for the confusion

If a model in this unit is slain in the Fight phase, then
once the enemy unit has finished making its attacks you can attack with that model before removing it as a casualty, even if it has already attacked that phase

**DeathReaper**

Type40 wrote:
I meant the wulfen ability not the tyranid one

sorry for the confusion

If a model in this unit is slain in the Fight phase, then
once the enemy unit has finished making its attacks you can attack with that model before removing it as a casualty, even if it has already attacked that phase

Yea I realized you may have been talking about Space wolves, and posted an edit.

In a nutshell the Space wolf Death Frenzy rule says "you can attack with that model before removing it as a casualty, even if it has already attacked that phase."

So it is all attacks, because they use attack to mean all attacks because they say "even if it has already attacked that phase."

http://wahapedia.ru/wh40k8ed/factions/space-wolves/Wulfen

**Type40**

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

So it is all attacks, because they use attack to mean all attacks becausae they say "even if it has already attacked that phase."

Do you have anything to support this interpretation ? resolving an attack is still just one attack... i am not saying your wrong, I am just looking for rules that support this interpretation...

**DeathReaper**

Type40 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

So it is all attacks, because they use attack to mean all attacks becausae they say "even if it has already attacked that phase."

Do you have anything to support this interpretation ? resolving an attack is still just one attack... i am not saying your wrong, I am just looking for rules that support this interpretation...

Yes, the rules support this interpretation

I listed it.

They use attack to mean all attacks because they say "even if it has already attacked that phase."

You have to look at the context of the rule.

**Type40**

What does "even if it has already attacked that phase." have to do with what it means to attack ?

that statement doesn't specify how many attacks constitutes a model "attacking"

Again, normally in the rules syntax, if I say, my model is making an attack , I am resolving a single attack. There is no rule that talks about a model that "attacks" just models that make attacks... single attacks...

i dont think its as clear in the rules as you claim it is... if it was I wouldnt be asking.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
However, i do lean towards it being all attacks just because so many other similar abilities specifically say the unit makes "a single attack before it is removed"

but if another piece of RAW supports this interpretation i'd be happier.

**DeathReaper**

Type40 wrote:
What does "even if it has already attacked that phase." have to do with what it means to attack ?

that statement doesn't specify how many attacks constitutes a model "attacking"

Again, normally in the rules syntax, if I say, my model is making an attack , I am resolving a single attack. There is no rule that talks about a model that "attacks" just models that make attacks... single attacks...

i dont think its as clear in the rules as you claim it is... if it was I wouldnt be asking.

" if I say, my model is making an attack" but thats not what the rules say, they do not say make an attack, so it is not limited to one attack. The rule says "you can attack with that model before removing it as a casualty" not [you can make an attack with that model.] See the difference in context between those two phrases?

In the context of the rules, "already attacked that phase" means made all of its attacks.

It basically gets to attack again with its full compliment of attacks.

**JNAProductions**

I'm confused as to why you're confused.

It's pretty clear you get your full allotment of attacks-there's nothing that says an attack on there at all.

**alextroy**

From the rules for the Fight Phase:

3. Choose Targets
First, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. To target an enemy unit, the attacking model must either be within 1" of that unit, or within 1" of another model from its own unit that is itself within 1" of that enemy unit. This represents the unit fighting in two ranks. Models that charged this turn can only target enemy units that they charged in the previous phase.
If a model can make more than one close combat attack (see right), it can split them between eligible target units as you wish. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model, each can target a different enemy unit. In either case, declare how you will split the unit’s close combat attacks before any dice are rolled, and resolve all attacks against one target before moving on to the next.
Number of Attacks
The number of close combat attacks a model makes against its target is determined by its Attacks characteristic. You roll one dice for each close combat attack being made. For example, if a model has an Attacks characteristic of 2, it can make 2 close combat attacks and you can therefore roll 2 dice.

Since Death Frenzy doesn't tell you to make 1 attack, you use the model's Attack characteristic (here goes GW overloading a word again).

**p5freak**

Q: If any of your units are eligible to fight in the Fight phase,
can you choose for them not to fight this turn? Also, if any of
your units charged in the Charge phase, do they have to fight
first in the Fight phase, or can you choose for them to wait until
later in the phase?
A: All eligible units must fight in the Fight phase; they
cannot ‘pass’ and wait for another phase. Additionally,
a unit must fight when it is its time to do so; it cannot
‘hold’ in order to fight later in the phase. So if a unit
WARHAMMER 40,000 RULEBOOK 5
charged in the preceding Charge phase, it must fight
before any non-charging models in the Fight phase
(barring any related abilities).
Note that when a model fights, it must do all of its close combat
attacks if it can do so – you cannot choose for it not to do so
(though you can still choose which weapon it uses for each close
combat attack).

**JohnnyHell**

They should have used the word ‘fight’ instead of ‘attack’. Seems like a wording error. HIWPI is the model can fight again, in line with similar SM abilities, unless an FAQ comes out to clarify/contradict that.

**Aash**

JohnnyHell wrote:
They should have used the word ‘fight’ instead of ‘attack’. Seems like a wording error. HIWPI is the model can fight again, in line with similar SM abilities, unless an FAQ comes out to clarify/contradict that.

I think “fight” would change the rule though, wouldn’t that allow to unit to pile in again?

**Type40**

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I will play it as all the attacks... however, there really is a wording error here for all those who are saying its obvious... it really isn't. attack as a game keyword means something else in the game XD hence the confusion.

Anyways, i think its clear that the consensus is to make alll your attacks and thus i will follow this until an FAQ says otherwise.

Thanks all !

**Aash**

Type40 wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I will play it as all the attacks... however, there really is a wording error here for all those who are saying its obvious... it really isn't. attack as a game keyword means something else in the game XD hence the confusion.

Anyways, i think its clear that the consensus is to make alll your attacks and thus i will follow this until an FAQ says otherwise.

Thanks all !

I think it’s not so much that “attack” is a game key word but rather that GW don’t tend to use one meaning for one word when writing rules. The word “attack” is one example of this, as is “move” and the worst offender of all IMHO is “wound”. I’m sure there are countless others throughout the rules. It seems to be a systemic problem coming from not having the rules written by technical writers.

**DeathReaper**

Type40 wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback guys.

I will play it as all the attacks... however, there really is a wording error here for all those who are saying its obvious... it really isn't. attack as a game keyword means something else in the game XD hence the confusion.

Anyways, i think its clear that the consensus is to make alll your attacks and thus i will follow this until an FAQ says otherwise.

Thanks all !

If it said An attack, it would only be one.

Since it says "you can attack with that model" it clearly means take all of its attacks.

The wording is clear, even if you think it is not. Not understanding, or ignoring the context of the rules leads to confusion.

**JohnnyHell**

Aash wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
They should have used the word ‘fight’ instead of ‘attack’. Seems like a wording error. HIWPI is the model can fight again, in line with similar SM abilities, unless an FAQ comes out to clarify/contradict that.

I think “fight” would change the rule though, wouldn’t that allow to unit to pile in again?

Fair call! In which case they really messed up.

**alextroy**

It's not that clear, although not hard to interpret. The rule is when you attack, you make an number of attacks equal to your Attack characteristic. That's three different meanings of the same word in one sequence of events. This means you have to question exactly what they mean every time you see the work attack in the rules.

**Vizzin72**

I would second this ... the rule I’m pretty sure is explicit it is when it is destroyed in the fight phase therefore since it is within an inch of another model when the attack phase started, attacking would equal the number of attacks listed on the attacks characteristic of the data slate. Like someone said earlier with the ancient , if they meant one single attack with one of the close combat weapons they would have said it just like the Astartes banner says.