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we just got new terrain with "proper" 2 and 3 floor ruins, and directly ran into an issue (sorry if it has been asked before, I'm sure it has....)
How do you measure distances? Both for shooting and for charging?
Charging I think I understand... horizontally to the ruin, then vertically up, then horizontally to the base.
But shooting?
- Do you measure the diagonal distance? Or only the horizontal one, ignoring height differences?
- Do you measure from the top of the model or from the base (bottom)?
We had somebody directly under the ruin wanting to flame a unit on the 2nd floor, and it seemed stupid if they couldn't...
You measure in a straight line from the shooting model to the target, which would be diagonal in this case. You can choose for the shots to come from any point on your model as long as you can draw a line from there to any point on an enemy model. This may mean that an Imperial Knight is shooting from the tip of its toe into the top of an Eldar's hair, but that is how it works.
Tools of War
In order to fight a battle,
you will require a tape
measure and some dice.
Distances in Warhammer
40,000 are measured in
inches (") between the
closest points of the bases
of the models you’re
measuring to and from. If
a model does not have a
base, such is the case with
many vehicles, measure to
and from the closest point
of that model’s hull instead.
You can measure distances
whenever you wish.
Measuring is always the shortest distance between bases, or hull. This can lead to an absurd situation for charging anything on the first or second floor, because measuring is diagonal, but movement is horizontal and vertical. You can charge anything within 12", but because vertical+horizontal distance is bigger than diagonal distance, you can end up with an impossible charge, you may not have enough movement, even if you actually roll the needed number.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/19 09:15:47
This can also lead to a situation where you can’t shoot a model on a piece of terrain because measuring is base to base. You can’t measure distance from the highest point from a model on the ground to the base of a model at a higher elevation. Note LOS is from any part of the model, distance is not.
As to what exactly constitutes a base for models on scenic bases seems to be open to interpretation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/19 15:21:53
Aash wrote: This can also lead to a situation where you can’t shoot a model on a piece of terrain because measuring is base to base. You can’t measure distance from the highest point from a model on the ground to the base of a model at a higher elevation.
Why not ? Performing a measurement is not required by the rules in order to shoot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/19 16:41:31
Aash wrote: This can also lead to a situation where you can’t shoot a model on a piece of terrain because measuring is base to base. You can’t measure distance from the highest point from a model on the ground to the base of a model at a higher elevation.
Why not ? Performing a measurement is not required by the rules in order to shoot.
This is bizarre coming from the user who is regularly constrained by the physical limitations of their tape measure...
However, you are right here.
Proving the distance could be an issue in niche circumstances. If it's a borderline case and you cant measure it, you would likely have to invoke Most Important Rule and roll off.
Aash wrote: This can also lead to a situation where you can’t shoot a model on a piece of terrain because measuring is base to base. You can’t measure distance from the highest point from a model on the ground to the base of a model at a higher elevation.
Why not ? Performing a measurement is not required by the rules in order to shoot.
From the battle primer:
In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used...
How else do you suggest to determine if the target is in range if not by measuring the distance between the two?
Point is the game doesnt say "you're only allowed to use a tape measure, no other devices and no common sense deductions. Screw you if your tape doesnt fit or is blocked".
A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
The distance from the head of a model to the base of its target might be 11.5” whereas the distance base to base might be 13” if the target is elevated such as on the 1st or 2nd floor of a ruin, or on a hill. This will mean some weapons might not be in range, or in rapid fire range etc.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/19 17:24:15
Ok, i misunderstood aash. I was under the impression that he meant base to base diagonally was blocked by terrain, and cant be measured directly, but there are ways around that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/19 17:40:51
Aash wrote: A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
Unless the tall model on the table is a vehicle, then you can measure from the top of the hull, no? (assuming you can agree with your opponent just what counts as the 'hull')
Aash wrote: A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
Unless the tall model on the table is a vehicle, then you can measure from the top of the hull, no? (assuming you can agree with your opponent just what counts as the 'hull')
Yes, a vehicle model without a base would measure from the hull.
Aash wrote: A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
Unless the tall model on the table is a vehicle, then you can measure from the top of the hull, no? (assuming you can agree with your opponent just what counts as the 'hull')
Only if it doesn't have a base. Also, Vehicles can't go into upper levels of a ruin unless it has FLY.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/20 13:56:42
Aash wrote: A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
Unless the tall model on the table is a vehicle, then you can measure from the top of the hull, no? (assuming you can agree with your opponent just what counts as the 'hull')
Only if it doesn't have a base. Also, Vehicles can't go into upper levels of a ruin unless it has FLY.
Irrelevant. If the vehicle doesn't have a base, you can measure from the closest point for range to the base of the model on the upper level. If it's within shooting range but more than 1" you can fire weapons. If it's within 1" you're able to have close combat with the unit the model is in (and vice versa). So, a Stompa might be able to engage in fighting something on an upper level if they have someone standing too close to the edge.
Aash wrote: A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
Unless the tall model on the table is a vehicle, then you can measure from the top of the hull, no? (assuming you can agree with your opponent just what counts as the 'hull')
Only if it doesn't have a base. Also, Vehicles can't go into upper levels of a ruin unless it has FLY.
Irrelevant. If the vehicle doesn't have a base, you can measure from the closest point for range to the base of the model on the upper level. If it's within shooting range but more than 1" you can fire weapons. If it's within 1" you're able to have close combat with the unit the model is in (and vice versa). So, a Stompa might be able to engage in fighting something on an upper level if they have someone standing too close to the edge.
A good point. It's weird a Stompa can do that but a Knight needs to use a stratagem, but GW Logic.
Aash wrote: A laser is still measuring. I didn’t mention anything about the measuring instrument being blocked. I was pointing out that the range for shooting is not measured from the closest point between models but rather from base to base. As such, when determining range between models at different heights it is not permitted to measure from the top of a tall model positioned on the tabletop to the bottom of a model on an elevated piece of terrain.
Unless the tall model on the table is a vehicle, then you can measure from the top of the hull, no? (assuming you can agree with your opponent just what counts as the 'hull')
Only if it doesn't have a base. Also, Vehicles can't go into upper levels of a ruin unless it has FLY.
Irrelevant. If the vehicle doesn't have a base, you can measure from the closest point for range to the base of the model on the upper level. If it's within shooting range but more than 1" you can fire weapons. If it's within 1" you're able to have close combat with the unit the model is in (and vice versa). So, a Stompa might be able to engage in fighting something on an upper level if they have someone standing too close to the edge.
A good point. It's weird a Stompa can do that but a Knight needs to use a stratagem, but GW Logic.
Stompas are old models, without a base. They put bases on the Gorkanaut/Morkanaut, which is more recent. I don't think there's any newer vehicle models that aren't artillery that don't have models, just older designs like the Stompa or the Defiler. (There's probably some newer model out there I'm not thinking of, though.)
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