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So, I have been considering the fight phase and the issues both sides (T'au and Everyone Else) have with it and have come up with a bit of a radical solution, inspired partly by 'Point Blank Volley'.

As we all know, overwatch has been significantly reduced in scope and T'au continue to have basically very few options in melee (other than die).

Why not alter 'For the greater good' to allow the use of ranged weapon profiles in melee?

Treat it as if it was being fired at someone 1" away (for the purposes of rapid fire, etc though like with PBV, disallow Volley Fire) and use their WS instead of BS (manoeuvring your weapon into a position to shoot someone is still more of a close combat skill than a marksmanship skill).

Instead of a firewarrior getting a S3 close combat weapon attack hitting on WS 5+, they get 2 pulse carbine/rifle/blaster shots hitting on WS 5+, meaning that suddenly the fight phase gets interesting for a T'au player instead of simply being another phase where they have to remove models with very little comeback available to them...

Kind of defeats the point, in my opinion.

If the Tau army is to get better melee, allow Kroot to have their second attack back, bring in some Demiurge Infantry, bring in Gue'la Sergeants with Power Weapons, and allow Vespid to have some interesting close combat abilities.

Charistoph wrote:Kind of defeats the point, in my opinion.

Depends, what do you think the point is?

If the Tau army is to get better melee, allow Kroot to have their second attack back, bring in some Demiurge Infantry, bring in Gue'la Sergeants with Power Weapons, and allow Vespid to have some interesting close combat abilities.

GW has shown no interest in expanding the T'au range for a while, bar a new model for Shadowsun, what makes you think they will suddenly change their mind now?

Kroot suffer under 9th's blast & terrain rules and they weren't exactly being taken regularly even as wrap in 8th. An extra S4 ap-0 D1 attack each hardly makes them any kind of half decent melee unit.

Demiurge models would be a bit of a left field addition.

They have made it clear in the PA:tGG fluff that Gue'la units are not happening.

Vespid have never been mentioned as being in any way melee oriented, so would be an odd change of direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, technically it's not better melee and is therefore a far more appropriate method of boosting the T'au fight phase.

sanguine40k wrote:

Charistoph wrote:Kind of defeats the point, in my opinion.

Depends, what do you think the point is?

If they wanted them to be hitting on a 4+ in melee and be Str 5, then they would either give them the stats or the equipment to do so.

sanguine40k wrote:

If the Tau army is to get better melee, allow Kroot to have their second attack back, bring in some Demiurge Infantry, bring in Gue'la Sergeants with Power Weapons, and allow Vespid to have some interesting close combat abilities.

GW has shown no interest in expanding the T'au range for a while, bar a new model for Shadowsun, what makes you think they will suddenly change their mind now?

They haven't shown any interest in expanding the Necron range since 5th Edition till now. This is a bad argument.

sanguine40k wrote:
Kroot suffer under 9th's blast & terrain rules and they weren't exactly being taken regularly even as wrap in 8th. An extra S4 ap-0 D1 attack each hardly makes them any kind of half decent melee unit.

Hey, I'm just stating that's where they were and haven't been for quite some time. Maybe fix what was broken first instead of altering something outside of its original paradigm.

sanguine40k wrote:
Demiurge models would be a bit of a left field addition.

Not really. They are a space mining race introduced with Battlefleet Gothic, and they provided the Ion weapons that the Tau army uses, and have often be brought up as a way to bring some hard hitting power to the Tau lexicon since at least 5th Edition, if not earlier.

sanguine40k wrote:
They have made it clear in the PA:tGG fluff that Gue'la units are not happening.

I have no idea what you are referencing there, but they have been provided for in Imperial Armor and Chapter Approved in Editions past. It would be a more accurate statement in that they have no justification for providing another reason to buy Guardsmen models.

sanguine40k wrote:
Vespid have never been mentioned as being in any way melee oriented, so would be an odd change of direction.

Back when Initiative was a thing, they were as fast as some Eldar, and their race literally mine moons with their bare claws. So not so much an odd change of direction, but realizing who they are and allowing them to fulfill their capabilities.

sanguine40k wrote:
Also, technically it's not better melee and is therefore a far more appropriate method of boosting the T'au fight phase.

If it is happening in the Fight Phase and replacing their melee, "allow the use of ranged weapon profiles in melee," I believe your statement was, then it would be better in melee where it actually counts.

I largely agree with Charistoph. You're basically pitching that firewarriors become strength 5 A2 (S6 in the case of breachers) and that various suits become even scarier than that. So regardless of how you fluff it, the end result is that your gunline just gains a bunch of strength and attacks in melee.

Edit: Also, they kind of sort of have this already between overwatch and pulse pistols.)

I'd rather see them adjust tau so that they can act mobile again. Kau'Yon (especiallyl on Shadowsun) is really hard to give up, but it really, really discourages the mobility that's supposed to be one of the army's strengths. JSJ was definitely problematic, but a return to some form of kiting would be fluffy for tau and would give speed bump units like kroot and fire warriors more purpose.

Also, yeah, kroot and vespid are a thing, and there's plenty of justification for buffing their melee abilities a bit. Make kroot hounds a bit closer to drukhari khymarae in terms of killyness. Give shapers some better buff rules. Give kroot more attacks or outflank or sniper rounds again. Obviously you don't want to make tau as good at melee as they are at shooting, but kroot really should be the speedbump/countercharge unit that covers the retreat of your shooty units.

Actually, it sounds like the new reserve rules might facilitate that. If you can deploy kroot from your table edge after the enemy has advanced on your gunline and then throw them into the grinder, you could buy your suits and tanks another critical turn of shooting.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I largely agree with Charistoph. You're basically pitching that firewarriors become strength 5 A2 (S6 in the case of breachers) and that various suits become even scarier than that. So regardless of how you fluff it, the end result is that your gunline just gains a bunch of strength and attacks in melee.

Edit: Also, they kind of sort of have this already between overwatch and pulse pistols.)

I'd rather see them adjust tau so that they can act mobile again. Kau'Yon (especiallyl on Shadowsun) is really hard to give up, but it really, really discourages the mobility that's supposed to be one of the army's strengths. JSJ was definitely problematic, but a return to some form of kiting would be fluffy for tau and would give speed bump units like kroot and fire warriors more purpose.

Also, yeah, kroot and vespid are a thing, and there's plenty of justification for buffing their melee abilities a bit. Make kroot hounds a bit closer to drukhari khymarae in terms of killyness. Give shapers some better buff rules. Give kroot more attacks or outflank or sniper rounds again. Obviously you don't want to make tau as good at melee as they are at shooting, but kroot really should be the speedbump/countercharge unit that covers the retreat of your shooty units.

Actually, it sounds like the new reserve rules might facilitate that. If you can deploy kroot from your table edge after the enemy has advanced on your gunline and then throw them into the grinder, you could buy your suits and tanks another critical turn of shooting.

I agree that it doesn't matter what the fluff explanation is, this suggestion would make Tau good in melee which is going against what seems to be the design philosophy for them. I'd much rather see melee being viable for tau auxiliary units, kroot, vespids and new ones too.

As for JSJ, I think it should come back, but it would need to be thoroughly playtested to make sure it isn't game breaking. I used to love it back in 2nd ed when Warp Spiders could do it, and it is still the signature tau move in my mind.

I would implement it as a move in the charge phase for models with jet packs. Not a full move, maybe a 3" consolidation without the requirement to move towards the nearest enemy model. Another way to do it could be that the model gets an additional d6 move in the charge phase, only if it didn't advance in the movement phase. If it turns out to be too powerful and tau suits are never able to be shot at, maybe allow some form of overwatch against units that use the JSJ move in the charge phase?

T'au are still going to have the best overwatch most likely. It's already been said that some units will have overwatch as a built in rule rather than a stratagem, I wouldn't be surprised if battlesuits got a new piece of wargear or a piece of wargear is modified to grant it as a rule. Furthermore, the "For the greater good" rule seems as though it will allow 2 units to activate instead of one on a single overwatch resolution. So it seems to look like this:

CSM unit charges Fire warrior unit A who has "for the greater good"
Controlling player declares the overwatch stratagem
Firewarrior unit B is within 6" of fire warrior unit A and also has "For the greater good" which has the effect that "If a unit within 6" of this unit declares overwatch, this unit may also declare overwatch at the same unit as though they were also a target of the charge"
Therefore, you get 2 overwatch activations for the price of one.

There are a few stratagems that came out in The Greater Good that give tau a few tricks in mellee.
1. Firing rifles while in mellee
2. Mortal.wounds on the charge
3. Flyers delivering mortal wounds when real close
4. 5+ fnp
5. Drone savior protocols working in mellee
6. For the greater good and overwatch on a 5+ (broken good)

All I would like to see is a reason to field kroot. Or at least make them not a liability. We got new kroot tricks, but.... just not enough to warrant fielding them on a regular basis.

Tau/melee the concept is completely against everything the tau stand for. back in the day when you could use a dedicated kroot force they were pretty beefy in close combat with evicerators infiltration and the like. but the current rules have made them so weak.

the kroot wrap was replaced by drone wrap in 8th.

As a former tau player if my infantry get into close combat 2 things were possible
1.i screwed up somewhere and let the enemy get to close, not enough maneuver in my warfare
2.i intend to sacrifice that unit for the greater god for an objective somewhere else.

They should give Tau access to a wider range of diverse pistol type weapons, and i´m not just talking about standard handheld firearms here.
Give them stuff like explosive frag vests, taser gauntlets and a whole slew of backpack mounted weapons.

Well, the new announcement solves this handily. Tau no longer suffer from the same Overwatch restrictions as everyone else.

Simple and to the point.