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Also confirmed - need to make it to all declared charge targets.

* In the new edition, your charge roll has to be sufficient to reach ALL of the units you have declared a charge against, otherwise your charge is unsuccessful and no models are moved.

Brilliant changes! Being able to legitimately threaten characters should add a lot more tactical decision making in target priority and positioning. Actually disabling character-auras was VERY difficult in 8th, aside from some specialized cases, so I'm psyched to see it become more of a valid strategy for everyone.
More targetable characters also means less reroll-auras lasting the entire game.

I can see nothing bad about both of these. I'd say look out,Sir now is exactly like I've seen people on dakka hoped for it to be adjusted right from the start of 8th Edition.

I play thousand sons and use lots of characters and even I like this rule. I always though it was crazy/gamey that my daemon prince could be on the other side of the board in clear sight, but because one cultist is closer and on the other side of your, say predator, that you could not shoot my daemon prince. I think this is a perfect compromise to protect characters from getting blown away turn 1, and having them be immune to shooting basically.

Someone on the N&R thread said that basilisks etc. will be good snipers now, which is true if the characters are just behind the lines but not close to units, but that really is more of an issue with how good non-LOS shooting is, which hopefully will also be fixed.

Hate this. It murders any army that relies on relatively fragile buff characters outright, while not doing anything against armies like space marines that are relatively immobile and have beefy characters. It also heavily punishes any army that tries to aggressively move up the table. Staying perfectly still wrapped around your characters is likely going to be even more important now than it was before. SoB especially are dead in the water outside of extremely static gunline builds. Can't run repentia or arcos when their support characters are free real estate.

ERJAK wrote:
Hate this. It murders any army that relies on relatively fragile buff characters outright, while not doing anything against armies like space marines that are relatively immobile and have beefy characters. It also heavily punishes any army that tries to aggressively move up the table. Staying perfectly still wrapped around your characters is likely going to be even more important now than it was before. SoB especially are dead in the water outside of extremely static gunline builds. Can't run repentia or arcos when their support characters are free real estate.

Not sure I understand. If they're near repentia or arcos or even if a penitent is nearby they can't be shot even if they're closer.

I like this change, should help armies without great snipers(or any at all) be able to deal with characters better, just gotta thin down or kill the units around them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Not sure I understand. If they're near repentia or arcos or even if a penitent is nearby they can't be shot even if they're closer.

Characters absolutely can be shot if they're closer. This is 8ths character protection rule, with the caveat that you need an allied unit to be protected.

 xeen wrote:
I play thousand sons and use lots of characters and even I like this rule. I always though it was crazy/gamey that my daemon prince could be on the other side of the board in clear sight, but because one cultist is closer and on the other side of your, say predator, that you could not shoot my daemon prince. I think this is a perfect compromise to protect characters from getting blown away turn 1, and having them be immune to shooting basically.

Someone on the N&R thread said that basilisks etc. will be good snipers now, which is true if the characters are just behind the lines but not close to units, but that really is more of an issue with how good non-LOS shooting is, which hopefully will also be fixed.

Well basilisks can first shoot nearby units. Orks for example have been using 3x10 grots to cover ssag. That is basically dead strategy now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Hate this. It murders any army that relies on relatively fragile buff characters outright, while not doing anything against armies like space marines that are relatively immobile and have beefy characters. It also heavily punishes any army that tries to aggressively move up the table. Staying perfectly still wrapped around your characters is likely going to be even more important now than it was before. SoB especially are dead in the water outside of extremely static gunline builds. Can't run repentia or arcos when their support characters are free real estate.

You run in rhinos in anyway. And once out and charged it's repentia that is dying leaving support characters jobless. As it is repentia superior isn't needed even. And flagelants don't need support characters that much. Main reason to take them over repentia

 Daedalus81 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Hate this. It murders any army that relies on relatively fragile buff characters outright, while not doing anything against armies like space marines that are relatively immobile and have beefy characters. It also heavily punishes any army that tries to aggressively move up the table. Staying perfectly still wrapped around your characters is likely going to be even more important now than it was before. SoB especially are dead in the water outside of extremely static gunline builds. Can't run repentia or arcos when their support characters are free real estate.

Not sure I understand. If they're near repentia or arcos or even if a penitent is nearby they can't be shot even if they're closer.

I don't know if you know this, but combat units generally charge the enemy at some point, and buff characters generally don't so they don't get immediately killed/can buff multiple units. With this change the repentia charges and now the repentia superior has to 1.Attempt the charge and either fail, leaving them out in the open or likely die to whatever they're fighting, rely on whatever you can conga-line back to her for protection, or just straight up leave her out in the open.

So at best your characters are 2-3 models away from being easy pickings where before you could have multiple units protecting them from multiple angles. It's a massive nerf to any aggressive army that uses characters for support, while also having a totally negligible effect on gunlines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I play thousand sons and use lots of characters and even I like this rule. I always though it was crazy/gamey that my daemon prince could be on the other side of the board in clear sight, but because one cultist is closer and on the other side of your, say predator, that you could not shoot my daemon prince. I think this is a perfect compromise to protect characters from getting blown away turn 1, and having them be immune to shooting basically.

Someone on the N&R thread said that basilisks etc. will be good snipers now, which is true if the characters are just behind the lines but not close to units, but that really is more of an issue with how good non-LOS shooting is, which hopefully will also be fixed.

Well basilisks can first shoot nearby units. Orks for example have been using 3x10 grots to cover ssag. That is basically dead strategy now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Hate this. It murders any army that relies on relatively fragile buff characters outright, while not doing anything against armies like space marines that are relatively immobile and have beefy characters. It also heavily punishes any army that tries to aggressively move up the table. Staying perfectly still wrapped around your characters is likely going to be even more important now than it was before. SoB especially are dead in the water outside of extremely static gunline builds. Can't run repentia or arcos when their support characters are free real estate.

You run in rhinos in anyway. And once out and charged it's repentia that is dying leaving support characters jobless. As it is repentia superior isn't needed even. And flagelants don't need support characters that much. Main reason to take them over repentia

Both repentia and arcos are massively worse without support characters, priests are huge for both and repentia basically aren't worth taking without a superiors rerolls. Rhinos suck and have sucked this whole edition and now they don't even protect your characters accidentally anymore because it will be impossible to keep the character within 3 of the rhino AND within 6 of the repentia without wasting attacks congalining.

The bigger point though, is that these lookout sir rules only impact aggressive armies. A static gunline list isn't going to have any problem keeping units with 3 of the character but aggressive CQC or short range shooting lists certainly will.

I think you're over-stating the issue. You've delivered your units and they do their damage. Next turn your opponent is falling back (maybe) and shooting. Are they carving out enough fire for the units in their face and support characters? We'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

There will certainly be some adjustments to be made. Especially for me where a disc riding sorcerer is often not protected. I can only hope that weapons that shoot without LOS get a -1 to hit.

If I'm shooting IG I don't really care about carving out models to get to a CC. Nor do I worry about the captain buffing the primaris I just killed across the table, but as the turns grind on and coverage gets light i'll certainly be looking for opportunities.

You might hate tailing for your stuff, but marines can no longer buff in 6" without reducing the foot print of that blob.

For us TS players, the 3" also means that we are more likely to splash damage buff characters as well. I like that

Edit: Also hopefully characters being more readily targetable will be reflected in their points adjustments.

Court of Archon went from having a purpose to 100% no purpose.

And DJ's now must be near or in something, so sad.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Court of Archon went from having a purpose to 100% no purpose.

And DJ's now must be near or in something, so sad.

Sslyth's are Bodyguards are they not? It isn't like there won't also be exceptions to the rules.

tneva82 wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I play thousand sons and use lots of characters and even I like this rule. I always though it was crazy/gamey that my daemon prince could be on the other side of the board in clear sight, but because one cultist is closer and on the other side of your, say predator, that you could not shoot my daemon prince. I think this is a perfect compromise to protect characters from getting blown away turn 1, and having them be immune to shooting basically.

Someone on the N&R thread said that basilisks etc. will be good snipers now, which is true if the characters are just behind the lines but not close to units, but that really is more of an issue with how good non-LOS shooting is, which hopefully will also be fixed.

Well basilisks can first shoot nearby units. Orks for example have been using 3x10 grots to cover ssag. That is basically dead strategy now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:
Hate this. It murders any army that relies on relatively fragile buff characters outright, while not doing anything against armies like space marines that are relatively immobile and have beefy characters. It also heavily punishes any army that tries to aggressively move up the table. Staying perfectly still wrapped around your characters is likely going to be even more important now than it was before. SoB especially are dead in the water outside of extremely static gunline builds. Can't run repentia or arcos when their support characters are free real estate.

You run in rhinos in anyway. And once out and charged it's repentia that is dying leaving support characters jobless. As it is repentia superior isn't needed even. And flagelants don't need support characters that much. Main reason to take them over repentia

Hey man if you want to shoot a basilisk at my grots and then a second basilisk at the SSAG standing behind it you go for it, yass queen.

So just to make sure I'm not mixing things up.

If i have a character in the middle of my army let's say a Cryptek circled by Necron warriors and those Necron Warriors are shot and killed, or moved in such a way, that there is now a 6"+ radius between my Cryptek and the warriors, can the Cryptek be targeted by an enemy unit outside the ring of warriors (assuming there's still more than 3 warriors in the unit)?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Court of Archon went from having a purpose to 100% no purpose.

And DJ's now must be near or in something, so sad.

Sslyth's are Bodyguards are they not? It isn't like there won't also be exceptions to the rules.

Their Bodyguard rule is, Roll a D6 each time a Archon loses a wound, on a 2+ this model takes the wound and suffers a MW.

If the Archon took 3 wounds you roll 3 dice. The problem if they can now be shot at b.c Court units are Single model units.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
So just to make sure I'm not mixing things up.

If i have a character in the middle of my army let's say a Cryptek circled by Necron warriors and those Necron Warriors are shot and killed, or moved in such a way, that there is now a 6"+ radius between my Cryptek and the warriors, can the Cryptek be targeted by an enemy unit outside the ring of warriors (assuming there's still more than 3 warriors in the unit)?

Yes. Except that it's a 3" radius. If your character is in the middle of a gunline and your opponent blows everything up, leaving him standing in the middle of a crater on a little spike of land like a looney tune, they may then freely shoot that character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Court of Archon went from having a purpose to 100% no purpose.

And DJ's now must be near or in something, so sad.

Sslyth's are Bodyguards are they not? It isn't like there won't also be exceptions to the rules.

Their Bodyguard rule is, Roll a D6 each time a Archon loses a wound, on a 2+ this model takes the wound and suffers a MW.

If the Archon took 3 wounds you roll 3 dice. The problem if they can now be shot at b.c Court units are Single model units.

wait, so why is this bad then? You're saying it's bad because we might actually have to use the Cold Blooded Bodyguard rule?

This is just another buff to gunline armies so I'm not a fan. It's already hard enough trying to screen your heroes from getting blown off the board before they can serve their purpose with some armies.

the_scotsman wrote:

If your character is in the middle of a gunline and your opponent blows everything up, leaving him standing in the middle of a crater on a little spike of land like a looney tune, they may then freely shoot that character.

This got me good. Bravo.

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
So just to make sure I'm not mixing things up.

If i have a character in the middle of my army let's say a Cryptek circled by Necron warriors and those Necron Warriors are shot and killed, or moved in such a way, that there is now a 6"+ radius between my Cryptek and the warriors, can the Cryptek be targeted by an enemy unit outside the ring of warriors (assuming there's still more than 3 warriors in the unit)?

Correct... if your guy is standing in the middle of nowhere with no bros around, he can be freely targeted even if he isn't the closest model to the firer.

Now, in order to get character protections, there needs to be a closer model to the firer AND there needs to be pretty much any friendly unit within 3" of the character.

Funny thing about how it reads is... the unit within 3" doesn't need to be closer to the firer to block, you just need to have any closer unit AND a friendly unit within 3" of your character.

I personally like the 3+ model for non-vehicle or monster units to shield the character. No lone grot blocking off shotting da boss!

Just to make sure if I get the wording right:

Lets say I'm a shooty unit. 10'' to my RIGHT there is a lone character I can see, 9'' to my LEFT there are some conscripts.
8th Edition says I cannot shoot the character, as he is not the closest visible unit.
"Look out sir" says I can, cause the lone character does not have a vehicle, monster or a unit with 3+ models nearby, correct?



And to build on that: same Situation, but this time, a tank stands 1'' BEHIND that character (so 11'' from me).
=> the character now has someone to "look out sir" in range. So I cannot shoot him, because he is not the closest visible model (that are the conscripts on my left). If I remove those conscripts I can shoot him again, because he becomes the closest enemy model, correct?

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Just to make sure if I get the wording right:

Lets say I'm a shooty unit. 10'' to my RIGHT there is a lone character I can see, 9'' to my LEFT there are some conscripts.
8th Edition says I cannot shoot the character, as he is not the closest visible unit.
"Look out sir" says I can, cause the lone character does not have a vehicle, monster or a unit with 3+ models nearby, correct?



And to build on that: same Situation, but this time, a tank stands 1'' BEHIND that character (so 11'' from me).
=> the character now has someone to "look out sir" in range. So I cannot shoot him, because he is not the closest visible model (that are the conscripts on my left). If I remove those conscripts I can shoot him again, because he becomes the closest enemy model, correct?

That's a solid yarp on both counts there cap'n.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
This is just another buff to gunline armies so I'm not a fan. It's already hard enough trying to screen your heroes from getting blown off the board before they can serve their purpose with some armies.

It might lean better for gunlines, but they still have consequences...and just wait until Fallback becomes a strat.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
So just to make sure I'm not mixing things up.

If i have a character in the middle of my army let's say a Cryptek circled by Necron warriors and those Necron Warriors are shot and killed, or moved in such a way, that there is now a 6"+ radius between my Cryptek and the warriors, can the Cryptek be targeted by an enemy unit outside the ring of warriors (assuming there's still more than 3 warriors in the unit)?

Yes. Except that it's a 3" radius. If your character is in the middle of a gunline and your opponent blows everything up, leaving him standing in the middle of a crater on a little spike of land like a looney tune, they may then freely shoot that character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Court of Archon went from having a purpose to 100% no purpose.

And DJ's now must be near or in something, so sad.

Sslyth's are Bodyguards are they not? It isn't like there won't also be exceptions to the rules.

Their Bodyguard rule is, Roll a D6 each time a Archon loses a wound, on a 2+ this model takes the wound and suffers a MW.

If the Archon took 3 wounds you roll 3 dice. The problem if they can now be shot at b.c Court units are Single model units.

wait, so why is this bad then? You're saying it's bad because we might actually have to use the Cold Blooded Bodyguard rule?

Its bad b.c they can't get Look out Sir protection, meaning no one is going to take Court still b.c they are 100% terrible and they will just keep the Archon near Ravagers like they do now, b.c Archons are f ing trash this edition, their only purpose is the HQ slot and RR1's aura.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Just to make sure if I get the wording right:

Lets say I'm a shooty unit. 10'' to my RIGHT there is a lone character I can see, 9'' to my LEFT there are some conscripts.
8th Edition says I cannot shoot the character, as he is not the closest visible unit.
"Look out sir" says I can, cause the lone character does not have a vehicle, monster or a unit with 3+ models nearby, correct?



And to build on that: same Situation, but this time, a tank stands 1'' BEHIND that character (so 11'' from me).
=> the character now has someone to "look out sir" in range. So I cannot shoot him, because he is not the closest visible model (that are the conscripts on my left). If I remove those conscripts I can shoot him again, because he becomes the closest enemy model, correct?

That's a solid yarp on both counts there cap'n.

I don't think that's intended, but that is what the rule says. Expect a FAQ for clarification.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Mixzremixzd wrote:
So just to make sure I'm not mixing things up.

If i have a character in the middle of my army let's say a Cryptek circled by Necron warriors and those Necron Warriors are shot and killed, or moved in such a way, that there is now a 6"+ radius between my Cryptek and the warriors, can the Cryptek be targeted by an enemy unit outside the ring of warriors (assuming there's still more than 3 warriors in the unit)?

Yes. Except that it's a 3" radius. If your character is in the middle of a gunline and your opponent blows everything up, leaving him standing in the middle of a crater on a little spike of land like a looney tune, they may then freely shoot that character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Court of Archon went from having a purpose to 100% no purpose.

And DJ's now must be near or in something, so sad.

Sslyth's are Bodyguards are they not? It isn't like there won't also be exceptions to the rules.

Their Bodyguard rule is, Roll a D6 each time a Archon loses a wound, on a 2+ this model takes the wound and suffers a MW.

If the Archon took 3 wounds you roll 3 dice. The problem if they can now be shot at b.c Court units are Single model units.

wait, so why is this bad then? You're saying it's bad because we might actually have to use the Cold Blooded Bodyguard rule?

Its bad b.c they can't get Look out Sir protection, meaning no one is going to take Court still b.c they are 100% terrible and they will just keep the Archon near Ravagers like they do now, b.c Archons are f ing trash this edition, their only purpose is the HQ slot and RR1's aura.

So basically, nothing really changed with Courts.

OK.

if I shake my fist at the sky with you, will that make you feel less sad? I will if it helps. us dark eldar players gotta stick together like that, like I get it.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Just to make sure if I get the wording right:

Lets say I'm a shooty unit. 10'' to my RIGHT there is a lone character I can see, 9'' to my LEFT there are some conscripts.
8th Edition says I cannot shoot the character, as he is not the closest visible unit.
"Look out sir" says I can, cause the lone character does not have a vehicle, monster or a unit with 3+ models nearby, correct?



And to build on that: same Situation, but this time, a tank stands 1'' BEHIND that character (so 11'' from me).
=> the character now has someone to "look out sir" in range. So I cannot shoot him, because he is not the closest visible model (that are the conscripts on my left). If I remove those conscripts I can shoot him again, because he becomes the closest enemy model, correct?

I think you could also opt to shoot the tank behind the character, killing it and reverting the scenario to the first one you proposed. A lone character with no models nearby.

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Its bad b.c they can't get Look out Sir protection, meaning no one is going to take Court still b.c they are 100% terrible and they will just keep the Archon near Ravagers like they do now, b.c Archons are f ing trash this edition, their only purpose is the HQ slot and RR1's aura.

If he's giving RR1s then surely something can be slightly closer? He has a 2++ so it isn't trivial to get wounds across. So once you clear the 2++ then you start having to go through the Sslyths and then you get to try and bring him down.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


Its bad b.c they can't get Look out Sir protection, meaning no one is going to take Court still b.c they are 100% terrible and they will just keep the Archon near Ravagers like they do now, b.c Archons are f ing trash this edition, their only purpose is the HQ slot and RR1's aura.

If he's giving RR1s then surely something can be slightly closer? He has a 2++ so it isn't trivial to get wounds across. So once you clear the 2++ then you start having to go through the Sslyths and then you get to try and bring him down.

Right now he is only there to baby it 3 Ravagers. The problem is he should be able to up front helping the army. I'm upset b.c it pushes him even more into that "baby sit 3 ravagers" role. No one takes Court b.c they are doing nothing on the table, even if you take 1 Sslyth, its not going to protect the Archon, you are paying 27pts for an extra 3 wounds on a T3 5+ hero, woopydoo. And b.c its a single model unit with a 5+ save, they just shoot him first.


My point was, the court are bad, this just makes them even worst.. which is a shocker b.c I didn't know they could get worst.

Now if the Archon was a Melee beast again and the Court was a unit like Tyrant Guard and others, then i wouldn't have said anything.