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Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




The Void

Lets talk about MSU vs full sized squads. This is mostly a marine issue, but of course applies to some units from other factions too.

In 8th, 10 man squads were a mistake due to morale. But now morale is going to be less punishing to 10 mans (and still not really punishing to 5 mans.) So how do they stack up now?

5 man squads:
  • More special weapons due to double champion (combi weapon and power weapons)

  • Can go after multiple objectives

  • Basically ignores morale (especially loyalists with ATSKNF)

  • More annoying to multi-charge

  • Can accompany a character in a transport

  • Fills out detachment minimums faster



  • 10 Man squads:
  • Better at protecting characters as they're harder to reduce below 3 models.

  • Easier to keep in range of auras.

  • More efficient for stratagems/single unit buffs.

  • Doesn't fill up your detachments as fast.

  • Hit harder by morale, but its not a catastrophic difference anymore

  • More ablative wounds before you start removing special weapons (unless primaris)

  • More vulnerable to blasts


  • Are there any other factors I'm missing? Will the pros of 10 mans be enough to use them in 9th? Are there types of units you'd want them for?

    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/06/24 22:15:18


    Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut



    NE Ohio, USA

    The only thing that's going to change concerning my running 10 man squads is how many pts I'll be paying for them.
       
    Made in us
    Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.

    And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

    Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
       
    Made in us
    Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

    Are we only talking basic csm and tacticals? I don't see myself going beyond msu on csm, but will definitely be sticking with 10 man squads of terminators with combi-plasma and chainaxes with icons of vengeance for what they can do with "Prey On The Weak" on them. Six man squads of chosen sound promising with combi-bolters and a chaincannon or auto cannon, with icons of vengeance as well.
       
    Made in us
    Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




    The Void

     Insectum7 wrote:
    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.


    Its certainly nice, but will there be times when you choose to keep 10 man? Especially since doing this means you don't get the second champion, and changes force org.

    Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
       
    Made in us
    Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

     Insectum7 wrote:
    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.

    Some of us don't have that option.
       
    Made in gb
    Executing Exarch






     Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.


    Its certainly nice, but will there be times when you choose to keep 10 man? Especially since doing this means you don't get the second champion, and changes force org.


    When they dont have many blast weapons..

    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

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    AngryAngel80 wrote:
    I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
     
       
    Made in us
    Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




    The Void

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Are we only talking basic csm and tacticals? I don't see myself going beyond msu on csm, but will definitely be sticking with 10 man squads of terminators with combi-plasma and chainaxes with icons of vengeance for what they can do with "Prey On The Weak" on them. Six man squads of chosen sound promising with combi-bolters and a chaincannon or auto cannon, with icons of vengeance as well.


    Any units.

    Of course, the biggest issue with CSM is that they aren't all that good right. We're only taking the minimum to satisfy troops. So we have to assume that they get new traits or something to make them worth using before we can think about how we'd want to use them.

    Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
       
    Made in gb
    Regular Dakkanaut




    I think there will certainly be a place for 10 man squads.

    Firstly, yes it does mean more heavy weapons. Always handy and you have a good point about strategems (transhuman physiology comes to mind).

    However, I think the big thing will be characters, and the fact that they can now be targeted in not within 3" of a unit of at least 3 models or a vehicle or monster. Small 5 man squads are going to be a lot easier to drop below that threshold than a 10 man (especially with the above mentioned strat).
    While 1 10 man squad is easier to focus fire on in order to drop below 3 you need to kill 8, as opposed to the 6 required to drop two separate 5 mans both to below 3 models. This is a fairly big difference. Its also why I'm fairly sure I will now be including apothecaries in my army (although i already use a deathwing one).

    Lastly, always remember that if you buy a 10 man unit, when you actually get to the game if you think 2 5 mans will be better (because of terrain or objectives or whatnot) you always have the combat squad strat. I mean, Thats literally what the strat is for....

    Some marines armies will benefit more than others of course (my dark angels have things like Azrael which work great on 10 hellblasters for example) Whereas ravenguard for example may be better off with msu.

    People mostly stopped using 10 man squads because of the free sergeants, but really a 5 man combat squad with a heavy weapon doesnt lose out much and I think the benefits of abilities (especially psychic buffs) on 10 man squads certainly makes up for 1 less sergeant.

    Also, 10 man squads just look much cooler.
       
    Made in es
    Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




    Vigo. Spain.

    Whats the obsesion for people to run max size squads?

     Crimson Devil wrote:

    Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

    ERJAK wrote:
    Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

     
       
    Made in us
    Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




    The Void

     Galas wrote:
    Whats the obsesion for people to run max size squads?


    Its fluffy, it gives variety, it was the norm in the past, and we haven't been able to do it viably for a whole edition.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/24 22:19:25


    Always 1 on the crazed roll. 
       
    Made in se
    Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




    Sweden

    I still think MSU will be the way to go for the marine troops. Heavy weapons are probably better bought on tanks, attack bikes, devastators etc.
    Characters can go help the units that actually do something instead, like vanguard and sternguard vets, vehicles or terminators.
    The new points might change things though.

    Brutal, but kunning!  
       
    Made in us
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    It depends how you handle the squads at Min vs max.

    For example, I think Kalabites and Scions are a great way to help encourage max squads being ran. You get good weapon saturation via Kalabites gaining two extra weapons and Scions getting two extra weapons on top of not being stuck with a dinky Hot Shot Las Pistol with MSU. Then you got a good transport for the Kalabites via Raiders and Scions getting more from Orders.

    So it sounds GREAT in theory but GW made Venoms that much better than Raiders, and Scions just filling those troop slots whilst getting all the weapons they want.

    CaptainStabby wrote:
    If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

     jy2 wrote:
    BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

     vipoid wrote:
    Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

     MarsNZ wrote:
    ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
     
       
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     Galas wrote:
    Whats the obsesion for people to run max size squads?


    Resilience?

    Because sometimes its nice to theme your army around official organisation?

    The flexibilty? (see combat squads)

    Personally in my case its an image thing. I like the way full size squads look.

    On the subject of terminators in particular. I've been running a 10 man deathwing squad alongside 5 knights instead of the 2 squads i used to for quite a while now and the difference in efficiency with strats and buffs is huge (particularly deathwing assault).

    I think some peoples aversion to large marine squads mainly comes from two things. Recently...the morale rules. In previous editions? the fact that the entire squad had to fire at the same target (pretty much meaning any non anti-infantry weapon in a 10 man squad was less than ideal) but this changed with 8th.

    I run a 10 man deathwing squad with 3 thunderhammers/stormshield guys (one also has a cyclone), an assault cannon and dot in a couple of chainfists alongside a deathwing ancient and apothecary (bringing dead terminators back to life is fun)

    Dangerous in close combat, capable of damaging light to medium vehicles with shooting and still retaining a fair old whack of anti-infantry firepower. Combined with deathwing assault for free extra round of shooting on arrival they have vastly outperformed the smaller units I was using before. The 3 th/ss are there so they can use the strat Fortress of Shields (-1 to wound rolls on incoming attacks for a whole phase).

    This unit has severely caught out some opponents as most seem to think termies are not good in 8th (Dark Angel ones certainly are).

    But again I repeat, 10 man marine units just look so much better.

       
    Made in us
    Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






     Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.
    Its certainly nice, but will there be times when you choose to keep 10 man? Especially since doing this means you don't get the second champion, and changes force org.
    In 8th I did it a lot just to project aura benefits further. The needle may shift for 9th, but that's ok. Taking 10 man squads in my list meant I got to push around the concentration of Heavy/Special weapons if I wanted to, which is particularly useful if I'm taking Drop Pods. I can push the Plasmas and Grav Cannons forward in aggressive concentration, but keep a five-man bolter squad in the back to hold objectives and fire from afar.

     Gadzilla666 wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.

    Some of us don't have that option.
    Oh right, some people don't play loyalists.

    Dunno then. Back when I played Black Legion I still took the big squads for aura benefits, and Abaddon made them all immune to Morale anyways so I wasn't worried about that either.

    Blasts will change thing up but that'll depend on the expense of the Blast weapons and what the opponent is fielding. Off the top of my head, I don't think my Tyranids have many blast weapons. My loyalists have relied HEAVILY on Plasma Cannons though, and I can only expect a price increase on those.

    And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

    Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
       
    Made in us
    Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

     Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    Are we only talking basic csm and tacticals? I don't see myself going beyond msu on csm, but will definitely be sticking with 10 man squads of terminators with combi-plasma and chainaxes with icons of vengeance for what they can do with "Prey On The Weak" on them. Six man squads of chosen sound promising with combi-bolters and a chaincannon or auto cannon, with icons of vengeance as well.


    Any units.

    Of course, the biggest issue with CSM is that they aren't all that good right. We're only taking the minimum to satisfy troops. So we have to assume that they get new traits or something to make them worth using before we can think about how we'd want to use them.

    Yes, they need something to make them more effective, though it's always a good idea to throw a auto cannon on one so they can plink from a distance while holding down objectives. I'd definitely go with 10 man squads for chosen if the whole squad could take combi-bolters. Chosen should be a troops choice for the legions.
       
    Made in us
    Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






    ^The limitations on Chosen are silly, esp. when Sternguard and Vanguard can take their respective Combi-weapons and CC weapons willy-nilly.

    And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

    Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
       
    Made in us
    Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

    I think it's another example of gw forgetting that a unit exists and what it's rules are. Like how they forgot that the hellforged super heavys were the only super heavys with the steel behemoth rule that didn't have relentless.

    Until I started sending two emails a week about it to them for a few months.
       
    Made in us
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     Gadzilla666 wrote:
    I think it's another example of gw forgetting that a unit exists and what it's rules are. Like how they forgot that the hellforged super heavys were the only super heavys with the steel behemoth rule that didn't have relentless.

    Until I started sending two emails a week about it to them for a few months.
    Haha, did it get fixed?

    And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

    Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
    https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
       
    Made in us
    Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




    The dark hollows of Kentucky

    Yup.
       
    Made in us
    Locked in the Tower of Amareo




    I think BA will use them a lot. 10 mans that is.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 00:45:20


     
       
    Made in us
    Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




    San Jose, CA

    I've run full squads of intercessors & tacs pretty much all of 8th. only time I run less is if I'm putting them in a razorback as protection for a character.

    things will continue in 9th.
    just need another repulsor and to pick up either a stormraven or if I'm feeling frisky a Stormeagle.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/25 05:17:14


     
       
    Made in it
    Wild Wyrdboy with Minderz




    Italy

    With SW I don't have the combat squad ability and I'm fond of Razorbacks and the Gunship so I'm always running 5 man squads of Grey Hunters or Wolf Guards. A single 10 man squad with max plasma in a Rhino could be nice as well, some players use it.

    About Blood Claws 8th mechanics in list building favor the 3x5 solution instead of going 1x15 in any possible scenario but in 9th edtion things could be different.


    Orks 7000
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    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut



    NE Ohio, USA

    Gitdakka wrote:
    I still think MSU will be the way to go for the marine troops. Heavy weapons are probably better bought on tanks, attack bikes, devastators etc.


    People have been saying that for decades.

    And for decades equipping each of my tac squads with both special & heavy weapons has worked out just fine for me. I expect the same to be true in 9th.
    1st? This is how the Codex (in the fluff) dictates that squads be formed.
    2nd? See, I believe that each of my squads needs to be self-sufficient.
    3rd? I am not bunching up all of my AT into 1 easily killed unit.
       
    Made in pl
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     Galas wrote:
    Whats the obsesion for people to run max size squads?


    A 10 man paladin squads functions better then a 5 man one take twice, because of how buffs and stratagems are needed to make, them do stuff.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/25 10:18:57


    If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
       
    Made in us
    Regular Dakkanaut





    washington state USA

    I remember back in the day that running anything less than 10 outside of a unit attached to a razorback was considered powergaming min/maxing, the infamous las/plas 5 man squads

    My how things have changed.

     
       
    Made in es
    Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




    Vigo. Spain.

    Karol wrote:
     Galas wrote:
    Whats the obsesion for people to run max size squads?


    A 10 man paladin squads functions better then a 5 man one take twice, because of how buffs and stratagems are needed to make, them do stuff.



    Thats the thing. People is like max units have no place when theres a ton of units that are better in max sized units than in minimun sized ones. It depends in what kind of buffs and sinergyes do you want. Bigger units benefit more from stratagems , psychic powers, orders, various kind of buffs, etc... and MSU has bigger flexibility, so at the end of the day it depends in what do you want that unit for.

     Crimson Devil wrote:

    Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

    ERJAK wrote:
    Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

     
       
    Made in us
    Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





     Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
     Insectum7 wrote:
    This is why the good book (Codex Astartes) invented Combat Squads. Choose what you want during deployment.


    Its certainly nice, but will there be times when you choose to keep 10 man? Especially since doing this means you don't get the second champion, and changes force org.


    Well, sort of:

    I usually stay MSU, because it's generally better on a unit-to-unit level.

    However there are two reasons not to be MSU:
    1: you're limited in troop slots. Especially in the upcoming edition where detachments cost CP instead of granting CP, you may find yourself desiring to bring more than MSU-equivalent 6 troop choices [particularly as Space Marines]. You still want the unit to be MSU, but you can get around the problem by taking a 10-man unit and breaking into combat squads.
    2: you're going to stack the unit with stratagem/psychic power buffs. This is the real reason you're going to run a 10-man unit, because it buffs efficiently. So you may find yourself taking something like 1 10-man Intercessor unit and 2 5-man ones, or something to make use of the stratagem.

    Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
       
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    Denison, Iowa

    I'm planning a Primaris based Flesh Tearers army. I was thinking 50-60 Intercessors/assault Intercessors would make a good looking army. I only hope 9th edition makes them good on the board too.
       
    Made in us
    Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





    It may be worth to take a 10-m unit then combat squad it given the rules for detachment and CP's, but by virtue of its own merit, no, MSU seems to be better suited as far as given teasers go.
       
     
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