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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge






The tape is set at 24". That's an Idea Ingatorp table.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I did a 1k game (900pts vs 900pts) and HOLY CRAP is it small.

I do not recommend anyone playing a 1k game (even with new points) on their table size (44x30).

We both were playing fast armies (Quins vs DE) so we agreed to play 48x30 instead and even tho we did it was still way to small (wide wise) b.c you had to put everything so close together it make movements really hard.

Yes it makes the game quicker, but it was impossible to stop alpha strikes (we used new terrain rules and had 5 large 5 small pieces). I decided not to turn 1 charge and kill 2 of his key characters (I can move 30" and charge without trying, starting 12" he only had 36" which i can move 30" of that). Otherwise it would have been a 1 turn game.

15k+
:harlequin: 4k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Segmentum Solar, Terra, France

The new minimal approved table for 1000 points is simply too small. It kind of works for a very small skirmish at 500 points, but this is way too small for 1000 points, which represents a small, yet significant army.
These are not identical gaming forces, despite sharing the same line in GW recommended boards.
The table reduction for 1500-2000 points game size is somewhat more manageable, because it is 76% of previous space.

Traditionally 1000 points games are played on 48*48 inches tables. Moving for 44*30" means you play on only 57 % area of the previous de-facto standard. Which is way too tiny.
This table size is presented solely for making easy access : a kitchen Ikea table, two killteam boards and here you go. But in terms of game interest for 1000 points, it will be really lacking.
Almost everything will be in range of everything from turn one, and almost no manoeuvring, just immediate clash.

longtime Guard maniac 
   
Made in us
VF-1S Valkyrie Squadron Commander





Mississippi

We played on 36” x 36” mats for 1K games in 8th, and they felt a little crowded, looking back.

GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game. Hopefully, players will quickly realize this and choose to use more sensible play areas rather than ones focusing on selling GW battlemats.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 Stormonu wrote:
We played on 36” x 36” mats for 1K games in 8th, and they felt a little crowded, looking back.

GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game. Hopefully, players will quickly realize this and choose to use more sensible play areas rather than ones focusing on selling GW battlemats.


44x60 isn't terrible. Width matters more than length does and it's only 4" narrower.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






1k in 5th-8th is fine at 48x36 b.c 1/2 of 6" is fine with 3" but in new mat size it doesn't translate the same and GW seriously miss calculated. Unless they don't want 1k game.

If i was in charge of an event i would do 500-750, or 1200+ to not hit that way to small table size for 1k games.

15k+
:harlequin: 4k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





 Stormonu wrote:
GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game.
I disagree. The reduction from 72" to 60" has a huge impact on the game.

72" long board always encouraged gunline armies to deploy +48" range guns along the edge of player's edge, 36" range guns @ 6" away from player's edge, 24" range guns @ deployment line. The only line of defense against such deployment is deepstriking, but with 9" rule it's really easy to plug in the holes so that you can't DS within optimal range. This results in yet another Napoleonic standoff, with little reason to bring guns that you'd need to move forward to get in range. The name of the game is "if your unit is not in range of enemy unit in turn 1, then it is a screen. If it's not a screen, it's waste of points".

This extra 6" of board space is exactly what you need to either force your opponent to advance their mid range units (to get within range) thereby limiting offensive options to assault weapons or spend another turn (to get within range). I presume you understand how deadly a single round of shooting is in current edition. Under this scheme, footslogging isn't merely discouraged - it's useless. There is no point in advancing your units to try to get enemies within range because they will blast you off the board. Without specific gimmicks available to certain armies, walking down the battlefield is no different than playing tower defense.

In 72" boards, backfield units are essentially immune to mid-range offense for minimum of 2 turns, and generally +3 turns. In 60" boards, you can effectively advance your mid range units deployed at deployment zone line and reach the backfield units in turn 1, and guaranteed to be within range in turn 2.

The smaller board is a godsend fix, unless what you want specifically is a sniper war.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 19:41:11


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




 skchsan wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game.
I disagree. The reduction from 72" to 60" has a huge impact on the game.

72" long board always encouraged gunline armies to deploy +48" range guns along the edge of player's edge, 36" range guns @ 6" away from player's edge, 24" range guns @ deployment line. The only line of defense against such deployment is deepstriking, but with 9" rule it's really easy to plug in the holes so that you can't DS within optimal range. This results in yet another Napoleonic standoff, with little reason to bring guns that you'd need to move forward to get in range. The name of the game is "if your unit is not in range of enemy unit in turn 1, then it is a screen. If it's not a screen, it's waste of points".

This extra 6" of board space is exactly what you need to either force your opponent to advance their mid range units (to get within range) thereby limiting offensive options to assault weapons or spend another turn (to get within range). I presume you understand how deadly a single round of shooting is in current edition. Under this scheme, footslogging isn't merely discouraged - it's useless. There is no point in advancing your units to try to get enemies within range because they will blast you off the board. Without specific gimmicks available to certain armies, walking down the battlefield is no different than playing tower defense.

In 72" boards, backfield units are essentially immune to mid-range offense for minimum of 2 turns, and generally +3 turns. In 60" boards, you can effectively advance your mid range units deployed at deployment zone line and reach the backfield units in turn 1, and guaranteed to be within range in turn 2.

The smaller board is a godsend fix, unless what you want specifically is a sniper war.


Yeah, none of that is true outside of vanguard strike. Character auras and objectives killed that entirely for 8th.

2500pts
2500
3000


 
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





ERJAK wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game.
I disagree. The reduction from 72" to 60" has a huge impact on the game.

72" long board always encouraged gunline armies to deploy +48" range guns along the edge of player's edge, 36" range guns @ 6" away from player's edge, 24" range guns @ deployment line. The only line of defense against such deployment is deepstriking, but with 9" rule it's really easy to plug in the holes so that you can't DS within optimal range. This results in yet another Napoleonic standoff, with little reason to bring guns that you'd need to move forward to get in range. The name of the game is "if your unit is not in range of enemy unit in turn 1, then it is a screen. If it's not a screen, it's waste of points".

This extra 6" of board space is exactly what you need to either force your opponent to advance their mid range units (to get within range) thereby limiting offensive options to assault weapons or spend another turn (to get within range). I presume you understand how deadly a single round of shooting is in current edition. Under this scheme, footslogging isn't merely discouraged - it's useless. There is no point in advancing your units to try to get enemies within range because they will blast you off the board. Without specific gimmicks available to certain armies, walking down the battlefield is no different than playing tower defense.

In 72" boards, backfield units are essentially immune to mid-range offense for minimum of 2 turns, and generally +3 turns. In 60" boards, you can effectively advance your mid range units deployed at deployment zone line and reach the backfield units in turn 1, and guaranteed to be within range in turn 2.

The smaller board is a godsend fix, unless what you want specifically is a sniper war.


Yeah, none of that is true outside of vanguard strike. Character auras and objectives killed that entirely for 8th.
ITC mission packs with secondaries & progressive scoring are local houserule 'fixes'.

This is absolutely true of both hammer & anvil & spearhead deployments. This means 1/3 of standard deployment maps suffer from the above.

There's still nothing in the standard rules that doesn't discourage going for board wipe as the primary objective. Dead units still can't score.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/06/30 20:14:45


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter





ERJAK wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
We played on 36” x 36” mats for 1K games in 8th, and they felt a little crowded, looking back.

GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game. Hopefully, players will quickly realize this and choose to use more sensible play areas rather than ones focusing on selling GW battlemats.


44x60 isn't terrible. Width matters more than length does and it's only 4" narrower.


I think that the lack of operational depth is actually one of the major weaknesses of the game when played on a 6x4 board with the 6' sides as the player table edges. There's not a lot of operational development, because there's no front lines or rear area. There's no penetration and exploitation, because there's nowhere to penetrate to. There's no such thing as defense-in-depth or deep battle, because there's no depth to defend with or conduct operations in. I would say that the fact that the operational area is wide and shallow is a major contributor to the lack of relevant strategic maneuver and why the strategic potion of the game so often winds up being a simple product of what assets have been brought to the board.

On the other hand, the 6' x 4' board also has the problem of if your turn it so the 4' edge are the player bases, it's too narrow to outmaneuver anyone, and everybody will have to face off in a big melee ball.


I think that the board really just needs to be generally bigger like 6' wide by 8' deep or vice versa, or even larger. That said, this isn't really possible, because only so large a table can fit within a house or store.



Stormonu wrote:We played on 36” x 36” mats for 1K games in 8th, and they felt a little crowded, looking back.

GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game. Hopefully, players will quickly realize this and choose to use more sensible play areas rather than ones focusing on selling GW battlemats.


Their realm of battle boards are 2'x2' tiles, and the Moon Base tiles total up to 65" x 43", which also isn't the official size.

It's pretty much to make the board fit on a conventional and easily accessible table; and I doubt it's to sell GW battlemats given that they currently don't make battlemats to that size.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in au
Navigator




Brisbane

Introducing... A fantastic reason to spam Wyverns, Heavy Weapons Squads with Mortars! AND! Mortars for every Infantry Squad imaginable!

Mortars for everyone, lets see how many D6 we can array against our opponent and force them to simply quit before the first dice is rolled...

1000pts of Mortars! 60D6 shots on T1, followed by every curse known to man, as your opponent packs up before you!

GW sure was right about the games being fast, they will be so fast that they will be over before the deployment phase is done!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/06/30 23:23:28


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Slayer6 wrote:
Introducing... A fantastic reason to spam Wyverns, Heavy Weapons Squads with Mortars! AND! Mortars for every Infantry Squad imaginable!

Mortars for everyone, lets see how many D6 we can array against our opponent and force them to simply quit before the first dice is rolled...

1000pts of Mortars! 60D6 shots on T1, followed by every curse known to man, as your opponent packs up before you!

GW sure was right about the games being fast, they will be so fast that they will be over before the deployment phase is done!


I was thinking take 3 Patrols (leaves you 2CP left) of Reavers, Skyweavers, and Shining Spears, all can turn 1 charge.

15k+
:harlequin: 4k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
 Stormonu wrote:
We played on 36” x 36” mats for 1K games in 8th, and they felt a little crowded, looking back.

GW’S sizes are purely for marketing, not the health of the game. Hopefully, players will quickly realize this and choose to use more sensible play areas rather than ones focusing on selling GW battlemats.


44x60 isn't terrible. Width matters more than length does and it's only 4" narrower.


I think that the lack of operational depth is actually one of the major weaknesses of the game when played on a 6x4 board with the 6' sides as the player table edges. There's not a lot of operational development, because there's no front lines or rear area. There's no penetration and exploitation, because there's nowhere to penetrate to. There's no such thing as defense-in-depth or deep battle, because there's no depth to defend with or conduct operations in. I would say that the fact that the operational area is wide and shallow is a major contributor to the lack of relevant strategic maneuver and why the strategic potion of the game so often winds up being a simple product of what assets have been brought to the board.



Simmer down Clausewitz, its just a game - and not a particularly tactical or strategic one at that. You wouldn't get what you're looking for on an 8x8 table either.

(But you're right on both counts, the ratio of frontage to depth on basically all the suggested deployments at the recommended table sizes is atrocious, the only deployment I have ever really think worked in terms of table utilization and emphasis on maneuver is Search and Destroy).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/01 00:50:28


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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Maybe the missions will fix it. If both sides get super small deployments in the corner the battle space becomes larger.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Once again, it’s a minimum size. Sky isn’t falling. Play on whatever table size you prefer.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





We had 1k tournament with 4'x3'(48x36) boards. Small!

Well ain't following those MINIMUM sizes. I want at least some pretense movement and deployment matters rather than just point&click army building.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/01 08:08:45


12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's just a different play concept.

Kill team is played on a 22x30 but uses the same movement values and weapon ranges of 40K. Yet it still works quite well and the game is pretty tactical and engaging.

Obviously it has less stuff on the field (about 200 points in 40K terms), but it is also true that every model is a single unit.

Using an 8th edition approach that board could look small indeed, but if you look at it with 9th/KT eyes, it could work.

Remember also that 1000 9th edition points are (according to playtesters) around 800 8th edition points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/01 09:03:23


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




the 9th ed points don't matter as much, as the fact that people are going to want to use the armies they have right now.

If someone has and plays in a place where 1000pts is played, then they won't care that in 9th it may end up as some bizzar 1150 or 1200 size game.

Same with the 2000 played right now, the chance that people will want to play the armies the size they are now is bigger then they are going to be willing to have units they will never use, And this goes double for elite armies or knights which can't just cut a squad, because a squad for them is a whole knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Once again, it’s a minimum size. Sky isn’t falling. Play on whatever table size you prefer.


People like to play at miniums, just like they don't want to buy and place extra terrain etc But this isn't important or what people worry about. The sizes, we are told, are playtested and optimized, for the missions GW has. If the play fields feel too small, but GW says they are well tested, then why give such miniumum and not give the old table sizes of 4x4 and 4x6 as the size?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/01 09:54:03


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper




Austria

Spoletta wrote:
It's just a different play concept.

Kill team is played on a 22x30 but uses the same movement values and weapon ranges of 40K. Yet it still works quite well and the game is pretty tactical and engaging.

Obviously it has less stuff on the field (about 200 points in 40K terms), but it is also true that every model is a single unit.

Using an 8th edition approach that board could look small indeed, but if you look at it with 9th/KT eyes, it could work.

Remember also that 1000 9th edition points are (according to playtesters) around 800 8th edition points.


So you cannot compare it to 8th as the changes are so big that it is a different game now
but you can compare it to a actual different game (different number of models and turn sequence) because some values are the same?

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
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 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Introducing... A fantastic reason to spam Wyverns, Heavy Weapons Squads with Mortars! AND! Mortars for every Infantry Squad imaginable!

Mortars for everyone, lets see how many D6 we can array against our opponent and force them to simply quit before the first dice is rolled...

1000pts of Mortars! 60D6 shots on T1, followed by every curse known to man, as your opponent packs up before you!

GW sure was right about the games being fast, they will be so fast that they will be over before the deployment phase is done!


I was thinking take 3 Patrols (leaves you 2CP left) of Reavers, Skyweavers, and Shining Spears, all can turn 1 charge.
-Smaller board doesn't mean it reduces the the size of noman's land. This is determined by missions and deployment maps. From what was 'leaked', there doesn't seem to be much changes to the size of noman's land.
-Smaller board means less places these 48"+ guns can hide and kite.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 skchsan wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Slayer6 wrote:
Introducing... A fantastic reason to spam Wyverns, Heavy Weapons Squads with Mortars! AND! Mortars for every Infantry Squad imaginable!

Mortars for everyone, lets see how many D6 we can array against our opponent and force them to simply quit before the first dice is rolled...

1000pts of Mortars! 60D6 shots on T1, followed by every curse known to man, as your opponent packs up before you!

GW sure was right about the games being fast, they will be so fast that they will be over before the deployment phase is done!


I was thinking take 3 Patrols (leaves you 2CP left) of Reavers, Skyweavers, and Shining Spears, all can turn 1 charge.
-Smaller board doesn't mean it reduces the the size of noman's land. This is determined by missions and deployment maps. From what was 'leaked', there doesn't seem to be much changes to the size of noman's land.
-Smaller board means less places these 48"+ guns can hide and kite.


You don't understand, you are 44", -24 for no mans, thats 20" you both have 10" on deployment zone.

I start on the edge of the zone, i'm can move Reavers 30", Shining spears 32" and Skyweavers 38".

Reavers 30" means the longest charge is less than 10
Shinging Spears means the longest charge is less than 8
Skyweavers means the longest charge is less than 2

15k+
:harlequin: 4k
Beastmen 9500
CoS: 3500

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
 
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