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So my nids played a game against mechanized IG this week, and we hit a situation where we didnt know what to do. 

 

He had a chimera shooting all the lasguns at a group of gaunts.  He measured from the corner of the vehicle, and found that 2 of the gaunts were within 12 inches.  So the questions started.  First, is that where you measure range from, the leading corner of the vehicle, if the guns are in the back?  Second, if he shoots all the guns, which of them get double tap, and how many gaunts can they kill?  Third, why in Beavis' name are the lasguns on a Chimera able to shoot in 360 degrees around the vehicle?  Im not really hip on vehicles other than the glancing hit damage chart, and he claims that since there are no rules about weapon mounts, they can shoot anywhere.

 

Ive also got another question Id like cleared up about double tap.  If a group of marines is shooting at a group of gaunts, and all the marines are within 12 inches of X gaunts, can they kill more than X gaunts if they double tap?

A squad either rapid fires or uses single shot. They either all have a 12" range or a single shot at full range. It's an all or nothing choice. So sometimes, if only 2 members of the squad are withihng 12" you are better off not rapid firing. In your specific example he could have chosen to rapidfire the bejeebus out of those 2 gaunts (because they were the only ones in range) or fired once at full range into the whole gaunt squad.

You can't kill more gaunts than are in the squad you are shooting (maybe I misunderstood your question?). If you shoot X gaunts with bolters and cause X+1 wounds the extra wound does nothing.

Posted by medic_4077 on 06/22/2006 11:43 AM
A squad either rapid fires or uses single shot. They either all have a 12" range or a single shot at full range. It's an all or nothing choice.

I do believe somebody needs to check his rulebook because that is simply not true.

Distances to/from vehicles are measured from the edge of the hull.

Skimmers mounted on flying bases measure from the edge of the base, if you strictly obey the rules but this causes a lot of problems so people don;t usually do it.

All weapons that are part of a vehicle have an arc detemined by the way they are mounted onto the vehicle. I don't remember the page but somewhere in the rules are some pictures showing how this works.

Tau SMS have a 360 arc in all circumstances as they ignore LoS.

When figures are within 12" they are forced to double-tap if they fire at all, with Rapid Fire weapons. The squad members outside 12" fire normally. Casualties are taken from within the range of the weapon.

It's disputed whether the casualties from Rapid Fire should be removed from within the 12" range from from within the longer range of the gun. Personally I hold to the 12" range but I don't remember the rules or FAQs that support it.

OK folks, here's the whole skinny with the Chimera Lasgun rules:

There is a massive contradiction in the rules. This is because the rules for it in the Wargear book (and in the CA: 2004 article before it) list the Chimera as having "2 fire points". One for the top hatch and the second being all six lasguns.

The problem with this is that if you look in the rulebook under fire points (page 64), it says:

"Each vehicle that can carry troops and is not classed as open-topped may have a number of fire points defined. A fire point is a hatch or gun slit from which one or more passengers inside the vehicle may fire."

However, the Chimera entry says:

"The Chimera has six hull lasguns that can only be used by passengers."


So:

A) should we play all six lasguns as a single fire point that we may draw line of sight from any one of the six (essentially allowing all six to fire on either side of the vehicle)?

Or

B) do we treat them as hull mounted weapons like an Ork Bolt-On Big Shoota (in which case line of sight is drawn individually from each weapon and those out of LOS of the enemy cannot fire)?


I think the answer clearly needs to be 'B'. They aren't the unit's lasguns, they are mounted on the Chimera. For example, if the unit isn't equipped with Lasguns (such as Ogryns), obviously they aren't firing their own weapons, so they must be individual weapons mounted on the Chimera.

Since they are weapons mounted on the vehicle, you draw line of sight from each lasgun weapon mount. Those that are out of LOS may not fire at the enemy.


The second issue is this:

In the rules for Vehicles firing their own weapons we have this exemption (on page 63):

"The normal restrictions for infantry moving, shooting and assaulting don't apply to weapons fitted to vehicles (including add-ons like Hunter-Killers and pintle-mounted guns). This means that vehicle-mounted rapid fire and heavy weapons always count as stationary even if the vehicle moves. . ."

The problem is, it is the passengers, not the vehicle that fire the Lasguns (the Chimera entry is clear on that) and if you look at the rules for passengers firing from a vehicle on page 64 it says:

"Infantry firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves. . ."


Does the fact that the MODEL firing the weapon counts as moving overide the fact that the weapon fitted to the vehicle always counts as being stationary?

Who knows. I've always taken the less advantageous approach and treated the passengers firing the lasguns as having moved if the vehicle moved (meaning they can only fire up to 24" if the vehicle doesn't move).


That's the long and the short of it.


As for measuring range from the vehicle: When a VEHICLE fires you measure the range from the hull of the vehicle. When the PASSENGERS fire you should be measuring range from their base to the target (as they are the firing models, not the vehicle). Since you probably don't put the models inside the vehicle like you should, I'd suggest using a gaming convention and measuring the range from the actual Lasgun weapon mounts.

I'd suggest using a gaming convention and measuring the range from the actual Lasgun weapon mounts.

unfortunately that is also a conflict of the rules since those lasguns are vehicle mounted and you measure distance for vehicle mounted weapons from it's  hull not the individual guns. a pintle mounted storm bolter is fired by a marine crew member but we still measure range from the vehicle hull. the conflict is the fact that if the weapon is vehicle monted it doesn't matter who is doing the firing and it doesn't matter if it moves up to 6" because it always counts as stationary as you said.

a FAQ on the firing slot issue would be helpful.

 

my IG playing friends usually end up playing fun games with me so i say go for it take your 3 double tapping lasgun shots at 12" hell they are only S3 AP-

now if you have a problem with that just have him shoot his 6 las gun shots and only remove the 2 guys he could have killed, or be mean to him and get him to fire his multi laser first and take the casualties out of the closest row so he cannot double shot you with the lasguns.

Posted By Ghaz on 06/22/2006 10:51 AM
I do believe somebody needs to check his rulebook because that is simply not true.

Gladly. What's the page ref? There are a few guys at the club who'll need straighting out too.

I've always played that range and LOS are drawn from the lasgun mounts, since they are passenger-fired weapons. I believe that range and LOS are always measured from the 'firing point' or hatch for any passenger-fired weapons - don't have my book on me though.

The Chimera is an unusual case in that the lasguns are attached to the vehicle rather than the infantry models' own weapons, but I think it causes the least rules problems to treat them exactly as 'passenger weapons'. The pintle-mounted weapons are a different story, they are effectively fired by the vehicle (crew), not the passengers, so they follow vehicle weapon rules.

As passenger weapons: if the Chimera moves at all other than pivoting, then the passengers are treated as having moved, so the hull lasgun range is limited to 12".

You can still fire all 6 at a squad that is directly in front of the chimera - I treat the swivel mounts of the lasguns as having a 180 degree fire arc. Really, you shouldn't be pointing anything other than the AV12 front of a Chimera at anything anyways

Why are people making a different action for the lasguns vs the pintle mounted weapon? They should be treated the same way for moving and firing, both counting as stationary and measuring from the vehicles edge. Once on board the troops are part of the crew as much as the pintle mounted weapon guy.. The fields of fire should be based off of the actual weapons arc like a sponson though because of how they are mounted.

Why are people making a different action for the lasguns vs the pintle mounted weapon? They should be treated the same way for moving and firing, both counting as stationary and measuring from the vehicles edge. Once on board the troops are part of the crew as much as the pintle mounted weapon guy.. The fields of fire should be based off of the actual weapons arc like a sponson though because of how they are mounted.

That is simply not true. A pintle-mounted weapon is generally fired by the vehicle (except for the Bolt-on Big Shoota), not by the passenger unit. The Lasguns are fired when the Passenger unit fires, not when the vehicle fires. Also, as I posted above, passenger models count as having moved if the vehicle moved.

They are not in any way just as much "part of the crew". Passengers are passengers. They are not part of the vehicle's crew, and you have no basis to make that claim.

 

 

So I actually have justification to make him measure from the weapon mounts and not the front corner of the hull? Kewl.

What about having all 6 lasguns fire at something on one side of the vehicle? Is there anything anywhere that says these guns only have a 180 degree arc of fire? Besides common sense and visual verification I mean, those have no place in this game. I find it amusing that theyre even given a 180 degree arc of fire, that they can all fire straight ahead accurately.

Posted By Strangelooper on 06/22/2006 5:39 PM
I've always played that range and LOS are drawn from the lasgun mounts, since they are passenger-fired weapons. I believe that range and LOS are always measured from the 'firing point' or hatch for any passenger-fired weapons - don't have my book on me though.

The Chimera is an unusual case in that the lasguns are attached to the vehicle rather than the infantry models' own weapons, but I think it causes the least rules problems to treat them exactly as 'passenger weapons'. The pintle-mounted weapons are a different story, they are effectively fired by the vehicle (crew), not the passengers, so they follow vehicle weapon rules.

As passenger weapons: if the Chimera moves at all other than pivoting, then the passengers are treated as having moved, so the hull lasgun range is limited to 12".

You can still fire all 6 at a squad that is directly in front of the chimera - I treat the swivel mounts of the lasguns as having a 180 degree fire arc. Really, you shouldn't be pointing anything other than the AV12 front of a Chimera at anything anyways

Strangelooper: "Ok, now I am going to fire my 6 lascannons from my chimera"
Happypants: "6 LASCANNONS!!!!?????!!!!"
SL: "Oh sorry, I meant 6 lasguns"
HP: "I think I have to get my heart checked"

(sorry all, inside joke, I still can't help but laugh every time I see someone talk about the 6 lasguns on a chimera)

Posted By yakface on 06/22/2006 7:47 PM

 Once on board the troops are part of the crew as much as the pintle mounted weapon guy.

They are not in any way just as much "part of the crew". Passengers are passengers. They are not part of the vehicle's crew, and you have no basis to make that claim.

"Part of the crew" isn't probably the best wording for it. As you pointed out:

"The normal restrictions for infantry moving, shooting and assaulting don't apply to weapons fitted to vehicles (including add-ons like Hunter-Killers and pintle-mounted guns). This means that vehicle-mounted rapid fire and heavy weapons always count as stationary even if the vehicle moves. . ."

The problem is, it is the passengers, not the vehicle that fire the Lasguns (the Chimera entry is clear on that) and if you look at the rules for passengers firing from a vehicle on page 64 it says:

"Infantry firing from a vehicle count as moving if the vehicle moves. . ."


Does the fact that the MODEL firing the weapon counts as moving overide the fact that the weapon fitted to the vehicle always counts as being stationary?

Who knows. I've always taken the less advantageous approach and treated the passengers firing the lasguns as having moved if the vehicle moved (meaning they can only fire up to 24" if the vehicle doesn't move).


That's the long and the short of it.


As for measuring range from the vehicle: When a VEHICLE fires you measure the range from the hull of the vehicle. When the PASSENGERS fire you should be measuring range from their base to the target (as they are the firing models, not the vehicle). Since you probably don't put the models inside the vehicle like you should, I'd suggest using a gaming convention and measuring the range from the actual Lasgun weapon mounts.

I agree that you are taking the less advantageous approach and that is definately commendable. However I don't think it is unclear,the vehicle doesn't fire the weapons, the mounted weapons on the vehicle are firing. The "mounted" property of the 6 lasguns overrides the infantry always count as moving rule, because it is more specific in this particular case. The vehicle comes with the lasguns mounted, they are just like a pintle mounted weapon except for the infantry doing the firing. There is no specific rule for infantry firing a vehicle mounted weapon, simply "infantry firing from a vehicle" which would normally be firing their own weapons from a vehicle. Sure it could be worded even more clear but I don't think it needs it.

 

NOT RULES: The fact that it requires infantry to fire is just a restriction to keep them from firing when the infantry is disembarked since they are the gunners. The fluff reason for infantry not counting as stationary normally is that the guns bounce around when moving because they aren't mounted, but these are mounted like a pintle mounted weapon. The vehicle doesn't fire the pintle mounted storm bolter, the person with the trigger does, same as the lasguns in this case.  I still say the mounting overrides the infantry rule on specifics but can see how you could see it as unclear but I don't think it is.

Interesting...I'll have to check the wording in the Chimera entry when I get home. I was pretty sure that there was something to the effect of "treated as passenger-fired weapons". Is it ever specified that the lasguns are, in fact, "mounted" on the vehicle in a game-term sense?

Maybe I'm wrong - if they are listed as 'vehicle-mounted', but 'passenger-fired', then I could see an RAW argument for allowing them to fire 24" single-shot while the vehicle is moving.

However, wouldn't that mean that they are subject to the restrictions of the vehicular weapons and movement table? Ie can't shoot AT ALL if it moves >6"? That would suck: one of my favourite things to do is to tank-shock with the Chimera and then try to pick the fleeing squad down below 50% with rapid-fire lasguns (works well vs Wyches, if not Marines).

I don't think I'd ever try to play the 24" range from a moving Chimera in a real game though. Anymore than I would claim that the Chimera comes with 6 hull-mounted LasCANNONs (heh, heh).

Hotflunwok wrote:
So I actually have justification to make him measure from the weapon mounts and not the front corner of the hull? Kewl.

What about having all 6 lasguns fire at something on one side of the vehicle? Is there anything anywhere that says these guns only have a 180 degree arc of fire? Besides common sense and visual verification I mean, those have no place in this game. I find it amusing that theyre even given a 180 degree arc of fire, that they can all fire straight ahead accurately.

Did you read my post? I included all sorts of rules quotes and everything. Makes me wonder why I bother sometimes. . .


@ Strangelooper:

Read my post again, I quoted all the relevant information. The entry does say that the Lasungs are "Passenger fired".

However, wouldn't that mean that they are subject to the restrictions of the vehicular weapons and movement table? Ie can't shoot AT ALL if it moves >6"?

No, those are the restrictions for a vehicle firing. These are passenger fired weapons, fired by a different unit than the vehicle.