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Battalions not in GHB 2020 (i.e. White Dwarf and msc. Box Sets) legal for Matched Play?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So there has been some discussion in my gaming group on Battalions that are not in GHB 2020 and whether or not they are still legal for Matched Play. Specifically those that were never printed in a Battletome to begin with, such as those found in White Dwarf or some of the GW Box Sets.

A lot of us (including some TOs) are leaning towards they are in fact legal for matched play, assuming the Battalions have matched play points and are comprised of legal units.

The rationale behind this is that the "Pitched Battle Profiles 2020" book has the statement "With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent." there are no other statements that are even close to pointing at a Battalion.

In the core rules it would seem to indicate that "units" are defined as physical models, under the "units" section it says "Models fight in units. A unit can have one or more models, but cannot include models that use different warscrolls. A unit must be set up and finish any sort of a move as a single group, with all models within 1" horizontally, and 6" vertically of at least one other model from their unit." IMO a battalion consists of multiple units.

In the Core Rulebook under "Warscrolls" it says "Some models can be included in formations known as warscroll battalions, which provide additional rules."

In the Core Rulebook designer commentary the only mentions of battalions are:

-Q: Many older battletomes have a page of rules for warscrolls, warscroll battalions and allegiance abilities. Are these rules replaced by the new core rules for warscrolls, warscroll battalions and allegiance abilities?
-A: Yes.
However this does not address warscroll battalions that were never printed in a Battletome (i.e. White Dwarf and Box Sets)

-Q: Some units and battalions have a warscrolls, but the warscroll does not have a Pitched Battle profile. Can I use these units or battalions in a Pitched Battle game?
-A: No. These units and battalions are only intended for use in open or narrative play games.
Based on this, it would make sense to assume that warscroll battalions that DO have a pitched battle profile are legal for Pitched Battle games.

So what is everyone else's thoughts?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 18:45:49


 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From page 3 of the Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book:

OFFICIAL PITCHED BATTLE UNITS

With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






When they were printed they were legal, unless something has invalidated that I would rule they remain valid. One would mainly need to be careful to see if they include outdated units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghaz wrote:
From page 3 of the Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book:

OFFICIAL PITCHED BATTLE UNITS

With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent.
Battalions are not defined as units. One could make a RAI argument based on this, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 19:39:37


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 NinthMusketeer wrote:
When they were printed they were legal, unless something has invalidated that I would rule they remain valid. One would mainly need to be careful to see if they include outdated units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghaz wrote:
From page 3 of the Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book:

OFFICIAL PITCHED BATTLE UNITS

With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent.
Battalions are not defined as units. One could make a RAI argument based on this, though.


This has been my interpretation (along with others in my group), RAW Battalions are not units, because in the Core Rules book (in my original post) it defines units as models. Now if the Pitched Battle Profiles said "Warscrolls" instead of "Units" then I would agree that only Warscroll Battalions found in the GHB 2020 would be legal.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
When they were printed they were legal, unless something has invalidated that I would rule they remain valid. One would mainly need to be careful to see if they include outdated units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghaz wrote:
From page 3 of the Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book:

OFFICIAL PITCHED BATTLE UNITS

With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent.

Battalions are not defined as units. One could make a RAI argument based on this, though.

Then why are there so many battalions that have Pitched Battle Profiles and yet some do not? Seems to be anyone who's arguing that the quoted rule doesn't apply because they're not 'units' is being a bit disingenuous as it's quite obvious what GW's intentions are..

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Sure, but I did not interpret the OP's question as one of RAI. RAW, it does not apply. I am also not totally sure of the RAI, I could see them not including the likes of WD battalions so as not to bloat the lists with content that isn't readily accessible.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Ghaz wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
When they were printed they were legal, unless something has invalidated that I would rule they remain valid. One would mainly need to be careful to see if they include outdated units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghaz wrote:
From page 3 of the Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book:

OFFICIAL PITCHED BATTLE UNITS

With the exception of Legends units, only units that are included in this book or that have a later publication date can be used in a Pitched Battle game without your opponent's consent.

Battalions are not defined as units. One could make a RAI argument based on this, though.

Then why are there so many battalions that have Pitched Battle Profiles and yet some do not? Seems to be anyone who's arguing that the quoted rule doesn't apply because they're not 'units' is being a bit disingenuous as it's quite obvious what GW's intentions are..


Well it's clear that GW has intention of Battalions for Matched Play and Battalions for narrative/open play because on page 10 of the Core Rules Designer's Commentary it has the following Q & A:
Q: Some units and battalions have a warscroll, but the warscroll does not have a Pitched Battle profile. Can I use these units or battalions in a Pitched Battle game?
A: No. These units and battalions are only intended for use in open or narrative play games.

So the way I interpret this is that Battalions (and units) without points are for open and narrative play while Battalions with points are for Matched Play.

I would assume that any matched play game has to be played RAW and it is up to the TO to decipher RAI.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sure, but I did not interpret the OP's question as one of RAI. RAW, it does not apply. I am also not totally sure of the RAI, I could see them not including the likes of WD battalions so as not to bloat the lists with content that isn't readily accessible.

From page 22 of the Age of Sigmar Gaming Book:

PICKING YOUR ARMY

Each unit in a Pitched Battle is assigned a points value and a minimum and maximum unit size in its Pitched Battle profile. These profiles can be found in the Pitched Battle Profiles 2019 book, or in the battletome where the warscroll for the unit appears. The game type you have chosen for your battle determines how many points you can spend on the units in your army. The combined points of the units in your army must not exceed the number of points shown on the chart. For example, in a Battlehost game, you can each field up to 2,000 points’ worth of units.

So one could say tnat by RAW you can't take battalions at all since there are no rules permitting you to take 'non-units'...

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




The problem with AoS and how they use their wording, is an Endless Spell a unit? Is a command point a unit? You buy those with points. I feel like that's the problem with all of these FAQ and supplemental books and then they make it more confusing when there is stuff published in box sets or white dwarf etc. It leads to a lot of confusion. To simplify things, if they really mean that only things in the GHB2020 book can be used they should just say "For Matched Play games, ONLY points found in this book can be used."
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

According to page 70 of the General's Handbook 2020 there are three types of Matched Play games:

Three types of matched play game are featured in this section – Pitched Battle, Meeting Engagement and Coalition of Death.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Ghaz wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sure, but I did not interpret the OP's question as one of RAI. RAW, it does not apply. I am also not totally sure of the RAI, I could see them not including the likes of WD battalions so as not to bloat the lists with content that isn't readily accessible.

From page 22 of the Age of Sigmar Gaming Book:

PICKING YOUR ARMY

Each unit in a Pitched Battle is assigned a points value and a minimum and maximum unit size in its Pitched Battle profile. These profiles can be found in the Pitched Battle Profiles 2019 book, or in the battletome where the warscroll for the unit appears. The game type you have chosen for your battle determines how many points you can spend on the units in your army. The combined points of the units in your army must not exceed the number of points shown on the chart. For example, in a Battlehost game, you can each field up to 2,000 points’ worth of units.

So one could say tnat by RAW you can't take battalions at all since there are no rules permitting you to take 'non-units'...
There is a pretty big difference between RAI "it is probably meant to be this way" and RAI "if we don't play it this way a third of the options break."


Found another relevant entry in the Matched Play rules, under Army Roster:

'The roster must include a list of the units, warscroll battalions, and endless spells included in your army"

This makes it undeniable that RAI is for battalions & spells to be valid selections (if it was not undeniable already) while also clearly designating battalions & spells as being different things from units, making the RAI on WD battalions somewhat muddy.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 00:47:54


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From my post above...

PICKING YOUR ARMY

Each unit in a Pitched Battle is assigned a points value and a minimum and maximum unit size in its Pitched Battle profile. These profiles can be found in the Pitched Battle Profiles 2019 book, or in the battletome where the warscroll for the unit appears. The game type you have chosen for your battle determines how many points you can spend on the units in your army. The combined points of the units in your army must not exceed the number of points shown on the chart. For example, in a Battlehost game, you can each field up to 2,000 points’ worth of units.

So the cost of the battalions don't count against the total points I can spend for units since they're not 'units'...

GW is a lousy rules writer and playing strictly by RAW isn't going to work. There's way more problems trying to claim that battalions are not units than just accepting that when it comes to the Pitched Battle Profiles they're considered 'units'.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






But that's the thing, they are clearly referenced as being something different from units. I could equally assume your quoted rule was RAI "units, battalions, and endless spells."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 01:33:42


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
There is a pretty big difference between RAI "it is probably meant to be this way" and RAI "if we don't play it this way a third of the options break."


This being the prevailing kind of logic here is one of the main reasons its so much more pleasant than the 40k rules forum...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 11:43:58


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Ghaz wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Sure, but I did not interpret the OP's question as one of RAI. RAW, it does not apply. I am also not totally sure of the RAI, I could see them not including the likes of WD battalions so as not to bloat the lists with content that isn't readily accessible.

From page 22 of the Age of Sigmar Gaming Book:

PICKING YOUR ARMY

Each unit in a Pitched Battle is assigned a points value and a minimum and maximum unit size in its Pitched Battle profile. These profiles can be found in the Pitched Battle Profiles 2019 book, or in the battletome where the warscroll for the unit appears. The game type you have chosen for your battle determines how many points you can spend on the units in your army. The combined points of the units in your army must not exceed the number of points shown on the chart. For example, in a Battlehost game, you can each field up to 2,000 points’ worth of units.

So one could say tnat by RAW you can't take battalions at all since there are no rules permitting you to take 'non-units'...


You still follow the core part of the rules that says you can have battalions, this also doesn't say you can buy a CP, mercs, etc.. Not EVERY rule is listed everywhere. This is a Hyperbole statement and you know it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 12:19:46


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Made in gb
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one easy thing to see if they're still valid is wait till the warscroll builder has been updated and check if the battalion is still there

 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Well Warscroll builder was just updated and includes the Nighthaunt White Dwarf Battalions now as well as The Boundless Hunt Khorne Battalion from Wrath and Rapture Box set, so I guess that answers that question.
   
Made in us
Lieutenant General





Florence, KY

From the General's Handbook 2020 Designers' Commentary:

Q: The Pitched Battle Profiles 2020 book does not include profiles for warscrolls or warscroll battalions from previous editions of White Dwarf magazine, from battleboxes like Carrion Empire or for store-exclusive limited edition models. Can I use these profiles in Pitched Battle (2020) games?

A: Yes, but only if your opponent agrees or a house rule permits it.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Whew, now we just need an answer for aux rules and we'll be set.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
 
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