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In the leaked BRB
the section called "Command Points"
Under the heading "Gaining and Refunding Command Points"
It seems to suggest that the stratagem Agents of Vect can only refund your opponent 1 CP of what ever they spent on their stratagem and blocks them from gaining CP further in any other way that battleround.
It seems to suggest that Feeder Tendrils can gain you a max of 1 cp, therefor it is 1cp for 1cp.
It seems to suggest that Player of the Twilight gains only 1cp (and if so, does you gain 1 CP only when your opponent spends 1 CP and you roll a 1 or do you gain 1 CP if your opponent spends 2/3 and you match 2/3)
It seems to suggest that Bjorn the fell handed does not give you a CP because you can not receive(gain) CP before the battle from any source.

Is there anything in the released FAQs or the leaked BRB that suggests otherwise or does it seem that all of these abilities and strats are dead for now / until we receive further information?

AFAIK that is correct, and until something says otherwise they aren't all that useful.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
AFAIK that is correct, and until something says otherwise they aren't all that useful.

Or in the case of feeder tendrils, completely useless.

but Agents of Vect gets a boost.

Cannot gain or refund CPs used before battle or at the end of the battle round.

Does bjorn, or girlyman, or imotekh, or any other character use CP before the battle ? No, they dont. They give you additional CP. These CPs are also not limited by the cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battle round rule, because those CP are gained before the battle begins, i see no rule disallowing that.

 p5freak wrote:

Cannot gain or refund CPs used before battle or at the end of the battle round.

Does bjorn, or girlyman, or imotekh, or any other character use CP before the battle ? No, they dont. They give you additional CP. These CPs are also not limited by the cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battle round rule, because those CP are gained before the battle begins, i see no rule disallowing that.

Is it "(gain) or (refund CPs used)" or is it "(gain or refund) (CPs used)"? It's impossible to know.

It could be my 8th Edition memory, but weren’t stratagems excluded from this rule?

 Type40 wrote:
It seems to suggest that Bjorn the fell handed does not give you a CP because you can not receive(gain) CP before the battle from any source.

I don't see how the rule lends to this conclusion. Can you provide some quotes?

If we follow this logic, then that means even detachments can't give you any CP's (via command benefits) since they're sources of CP's before the battle starts.

I was under the assumption that CP refund mechanics doesn't apply to before the game begins stratagems only.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Cannot gain or refund CPs used before battle or at the end of the battle round.

Does bjorn, or girlyman, or imotekh, or any other character use CP before the battle ? No, they dont. They give you additional CP. These CPs are also not limited by the cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battle round rule, because those CP are gained before the battle begins, i see no rule disallowing that.

Is it "(gain) or (refund CPs used)" or is it "(gain or refund) (CPs used)"? It's impossible to know.

Its CP used before the battle cannot be gained or refunded. We already had FAQs for 9th for all factions, and abilities which had no use anymore have been removed, like POTMS. If those additional CPs couldnt be gained anymore before the battle those abilities would have been removed as well.

 p5freak wrote:

Cannot gain or refund CPs used before battle or at the end of the battle round.

Does bjorn, or girlyman, or imotekh, or any other character use CP before the battle ? No, they dont. They give you additional CP. These CPs are also not limited by the cannot gain or refund more than 1CP per battle round rule, because those CP are gained before the battle begins, i see no rule disallowing that.

It appears that it doesnt mater whether or not the CP is "used" it maters whether or not it is gained... hence they feel the necessity to point out that the Battle-forged CP bonus is not restricted by this rule,,, and those CP are not used, it also just gives you additional CP.

There are several rules that give you the chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as a result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used "before the battle" or 'at the end of the battle round,' can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

It appears the text itself specifies this only applies to rules that refund CPs that have been used on stratagems.
However, the bullet points contradict this :

-Cannot GAIN or refund CPs used before battle or at the end of the battle round.

So,,, either the paragraph explaining it is correct and the rule only refers to refunding stratagem CPs before the battle... or the bullet points are correct and it refers to gaining or refunding any CP... as the rest of the paragraph and bullet points make clear that when it says "gaining" it is refering to any CP acquisition (like the battle forgered CP bonus) not just used CP.

I agree this isnt the rule as intended, but it is RAW and it is confusing because it contradicts itself between the rules paragraph and that paragraphs own bullet points.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ah, but i seee what you mean about where it says "used" before the battle round... its just confusing that they included the word "gain" in the bullet point... because you cant really gain used CP you can only be refunded it .... weird.

So we can take guliman and bjorn off the list of broken by RAW but the agents of vect, feeder tendrils and player of the twilight are still in question.

Thanks for helping me clear it up so far XD.

Per the rules, the bullet points are quick reference versions of the rule and not the full rule. The full rule is what counts.

And based on that rules quote, i was correct about Stratagems that give Command Points. Those are not impacted by the restriction on gaining CP based on someone using a Stratagem.

 alextroy wrote:
Per the rules, the bullet points are quick reference versions of the rule and not the full rule. The full rule is what counts.

And based on that rules quote, i was correct about Stratagems that give Command Points. Those are not impacted by the restriction on gaining CP based on someone using a Stratagem.

Can you provide a quote,,, because it literally says the opposite.

There are several rules that give you the chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as a result of such rules,regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used "before the battle" or 'at the end of the battle round,' can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

Are you trying to say stratagems are not a part of the rules ? because,,,, that would be confusing.

There are several rules that give you the chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as a result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used "before the battle" or 'at the end of the battle round,' can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

This applies to rules like warlord traits or character abilities, but not to an actual Stratagem that says "gain X CP". The key is that is a rule that gives you a chance to gain CP when a Stratagem is used are what is limited. Stratagems that strait out grant CP are not such a rule.

 alextroy wrote:

There are several rules that give you the chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as a result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used "before the battle" or 'at the end of the battle round,' can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

This applies to rules like warlord traits or character abilities, but not to an actual Stratagem that says "gain X CP". The key is that is a rule that gives you a chance to gain CP when a Stratagem is used are what is limited. Stratagems that strait out grant CP are not such a rule.

The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

The Battle-forged CP bonus also "strait out grant CP" and it is explicitly exempted from this limit ... Are your stratagems that "strait out grant CP" specifically exempted from this limitation ? ,,, the answer is no.

Battle-forged CP Bonus:

If your army is Battle-forged, then at the start of your Command phase, before doing anything else, you gain 1 Command point (CP).

It is quite clear that this restriction refers to BOTH any rule that GAINS you CP AND any rule that REFUNDS you CP... otherwise this section would be "refunding CP" not "gaining and refunding CP"

unless you can show that the BF Bonus is somehow not "strait out granting CP" ... considering the specifically referenced exemption in this rule it is clear it should be read as the following

"There are several rules that give you the chance to (gain) or (refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a stratagem or spend CPs to use a stratagem)."
If it didnt read as I just posted above they would not have had to use two adjectives to describe "refunding" they would have just written "refund" .

Also, your blanket statement about this only applying to rules that refund CP (and therefor not stratagems) does not take into account the Agents of Vect stratagem... this stratagem literally says "refund the CP spent on the stratagem" ... and is therefore are rule that refunds stratagems and is also definitly not a rule that "strait out grant CP".

 Type40 wrote:
"There are several rules that give you the chance to (gain) or (refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a stratagem or spend CPs to use a stratagem)."
If it didnt read as I just posted above they would not have had to use two adjectives to describe "refunding" they would have just written "refund" .

Also, your blanket statement about this only applying to rules that refund CP (and therefor not stratagems) does not take into account the Agents of Vect stratagem... this stratagem literally says "refund the CP spent on the stratagem" ... and is therefore are rule that refunds stratagems and is also definitly not a rule that "strait out grant CP".

I would parse the rule differently than you.

There are several rules that give you the chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as a result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used "before the battle" or 'at the end of the battle round,' can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

The reason the rule is written this way because some abilities allow you gain CP when your opponent uses a Stratagem and others refund you your CP when you use a Stratagem.

But when you use a Stratagem and the Stratagem effect is "Gain X CP", such as the Adepta Sororitas Stratagem Martyred that cost 1 CP and has you gain D3 Command Points, you are not using an an ability that gives you a chance of gaining/refunding CP for when you use a Stratagem, such as IG's Grand Strategist. You are using a Stratagem for which the effect is you gain CP.

The difference may be subtle, but it is there. There does appear to be a missing clarification as to whether this should be included or excluded form the 1 CP per battle round. Hopefully that is covered either in the 'rare rules interactions' or will be in the Day 1 rulebook FAQ.

 alextroy wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
"There are several rules that give you the chance to (gain) or (refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a stratagem or spend CPs to use a stratagem)."
If it didnt read as I just posted above they would not have had to use two adjectives to describe "refunding" they would have just written "refund" .

Also, your blanket statement about this only applying to rules that refund CP (and therefor not stratagems) does not take into account the Agents of Vect stratagem... this stratagem literally says "refund the CP spent on the stratagem" ... and is therefore are rule that refunds stratagems and is also definitly not a rule that "strait out grant CP".

I would parse the rule differently than you.

There are several rules that give you the chance to gain or refund CPs when you or your opponent either use a Stratagem or spend CPs to use a Stratagem. Each player can only gain or have refunded a total of 1 CP per battle round as a result of such rules, regardless of the source, and CPs that are spent on stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used "before the battle" or 'at the end of the battle round,' can never be refunded. The limit of gaining or refunding 1 CP per battle round does not apply to the Battle-forged CP bonus a player gains at the start of their Command phase before doing anything else, or to any CPs gained by mission special rules that instruct players to gain CPs in their Command phase.

The reason the rule is written this way because some abilities allow you gain CP when your opponent uses a Stratagem and others refund you your CP when you use a Stratagem.

But when you use a Stratagem and the Stratagem effect is "Gain X CP", such as the Adepta Sororitas Stratagem Martyred that cost 1 CP and has you gain D3 Command Points, you are not using an an ability that gives you a chance of gaining/refunding CP for when you use a Stratagem, such as IG's Grand Strategist. You are using a Stratagem for which the effect is you gain CP.

The difference may be subtle, but it is there. There does appear to be a missing clarification as to whether this should be included or excluded form the 1 CP per battle round. Hopefully that is covered either in the 'rare rules interactions' or will be in the Day 1 rulebook FAQ.

Yes, hopefully, as that sentence can be parsed in both ways... but due to the specific restriction on BF bonus, I am leaning towards any time you simply gain CP being included as well. Also, even with your parse it definitely still effects Agents of Vect.

*sigh* so the Tallyman goes back to being useless.

he can still get you 1 CP XD

Yeah, on a 6+ per stratagem, and not for BRB stratagems => useless.