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I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

Yes, with the exception of scouts old marines are just not good enough by modern standards. This was a problem before primaris came out, though.

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

They're great, but not as easy to use as Intercessors. Well armed Tactical Marines can out-damage Intercessors against elite units and vehicles, you just have to deliver them. Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun+Combi-plasma are my default go-to.

As for the other Classics, Devastators are great units, Sternguard are also up there.

The game is changing for ninth, so balance might shift around, but don't start replacing your collection until you get some games in.

Depends on your local meta and your chapter.

I play in a pretty friendly meta, and I play Salamanders, so 5-man tactical squads with a heavy weapons or 5-man tactical squads with a special+combi-weapon are both very viable.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

They're great, but not as easy to use as Intercessors. Well armed Tactical Marines can out-damage Intercessors against elite units and vehicles, you just have to deliver them. Grav-Cannon, Plasmagun+Combi-plasma are my default go-to.

As for the other Classics, Devastators are great units, Sternguard are also up there.

The game is changing for ninth, so balance might shift around, but don't start replacing your collection until you get some games in.

You will find this is the unpopular opinion, but I support it. The cost of special and heavy weapons for Infantry are down now.

A Tac Squad with a ML and combi-bolter is 93 points and on turn 1 will produce

4 S4 AP1 @ 48" (min 3)
10 S4 AP0 @ 24"

On turn 2:

4 S4 AP0 @ 48" (min 3)
10 S4 AP1 @ 24"

Alternatively 5 Intercessors will do :

10 S4 AP1 with a brief stint at AP2

This, of course, presumes you're getting some use out of Blast, but also consider the option to throw a krak missile that Intercessors do not have. If you want even more string upgrade the storm bolter to a combi-plasma. This makes an equivalent tac squad way more versatile.

Also contrary to popular belief marines in cover are not easy to kill. You'll also have the advantage that other armies are going to be worrying about tackling Eradicators and Outriders, which means D2/D3 which aren't as efficient when trying to kill mini-marines.

Finally, people will point to the 30" range of Intercessors. While helpful, ranges in this edition are less important. Fights will be forced to mid-table and standing back isn't going to win you any brownie points. Tacs will easily be able to engage plenty even being only 24", but let's not forget that missile launcher. Would you rather shoot Eradicators with 10 S4 AP1/2 or 6 to 10 S4 AP0/1 and 1 S8 AP3/2 DD6? Or better yet - 6 S8 AP3/2 DD6 just by virtue of filling out a brigade?

Heck you could probably really confused them with half tacs and half intercessors - then only the truly small arms will be free for mini-marines in cover.

Woops I forgot about all of the heavy weapons going down in price

That change does make tacs far more appealing. Something to try out before you dumpster your army, for sure.

Tacs were dead weight in 8th, they've potentially got a new lease on life in 9th.

Storm Shield / Stormbolter vets were one of the hidden gems in the firstborn arsenal in 8th, but they're set to go up quite a bit in points.

The Newman wrote:
Tacs were dead weight in 8th, they've potentially got a new lease on life in 9th.

Storm Shield / Stormbolter vets were one of the hidden gems in the firstborn arsenal in 8th, but they're set to go up quite a bit in points.

SB/SS vets (in Deathwatch anyway) are now too expensive (24pts). Especially when you compare to 20pt Intercessors.

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

They are getting phased out. I wouldn't spend a dollar on any old marine stuff right now.

 Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

They are getting phased out. I wouldn't spend a dollar on any old marine stuff right now.

I sort of agree (for different reasons), but its a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it?

I really don't like getting one wound for 15 pts. Even in cover, any kind of AP just melts them.

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

I think there is a place for them now. A good friend is testing 3 squads of templars in rhinos. So far its been pretty decent for him, and the ability to get up the table quickly in a relatively cheap transport has been pretty beneficial to him. I have a few rhinos (and a Rhino Primaris I need to magnetize a storm bolter on to replace the twin plasma guns) and some tactical squads for my blood angels I think will be fine, especially given that the cost of the heavy weapons has gone down. I don't think they are going to shake up the game or "bring back the beakies" but I think they have a place.

Someone else mentioned it, but stern guard and devastators are also pretty strong, and drop pods present an interesting list design decision that could provide some really strong benefits given how important it is to clear off and get on objectives fast.

Even old school assault marines I think likely have a place given how important mobility is in this new edition. I don't think that everything is perfect, or that they are going to be the staples of modern competitive list construction, but I don't see a whole lot wrong with them in the case of casual games and think they are probably fine.

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't like getting one wound for 15 pts. Even in cover, any kind of AP just melts them.

Necrons say hi

That being said, I feel like any "usefulness" for tactical marines is by pure coincidence and not a genuine balancing attempt from GW.

I understand that. But I have the choice to NOT get one wound for 15 pts. So I won't.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I really don't like getting one wound for 15 pts. Even in cover, any kind of AP just melts them.

Necrons say hi

That being said, I feel like any "usefulness" for tactical marines is by pure coincidence and not a genuine balancing attempt from GW.

Yeah and Necrons rely on a gimmick that can be entirely ignored for those supposed "extra" bodies, oh and they basically sucked this edition so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Tacs were dead weight in 8th, they've potentially got a new lease on life in 9th.

Storm Shield / Stormbolter vets were one of the hidden gems in the firstborn arsenal in 8th, but they're set to go up quite a bit in points.

SB/SS vets (in Deathwatch anyway) are now too expensive (24pts). Especially when you compare to 20pt Intercessors.

Eh, offensively you'd have to give it to the Deathwatch Vets though.

The gimmick might be better in 9th. Maybe.

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

Classic marines are pretty strong and primaris aside they're still among top tier armies. Against any other faction you should have no problems and might actually want to tone down your list anyway.

Primaris are so broken (and IMHO also awful models) that is no fun to play with or against them at the moment. If you meta is primaris heavy playing primaris vs primaris is so dull that I wouldn't encourage you to build a primaris force, if you can play against a wide variety of factions I wouldn't recommend primaris either since they're too overpowered and classic marines can be on par with most of the other competitive factions anyway.

I'd suggest buying primaris only if you really love the models.

Side note: Since 8th, Tacticals have gained a very excellent tool compared to most earlier editions by way of the fact that every unit can split its fire, and doesn't have to charge the unit it fired at. Your Bolters can shoot infantry, your Lascannons can shoot tanks, and your Plasma can shoot at elite units, all at the same time. Brining four Tactical squads is the same as bringing another Devastator Squad, a bunch of Veterans with special weapons, and a bunch of bolter guys, but distributed more defensibly and better at claiming objectives. Plus, you get Combat Squads, so you can rearrange your models to suit your needs for the battle, mixing them into your transports to your hearts content. Imo they are one of the most interesting squads to use due to the deployment flexibility and range of transports available.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Woops I forgot about all of the heavy weapons going down in price

That change does make tacs far more appealing. Something to try out before you dumpster your army, for sure.

too many people assume GW is making the rules to deliberatly make firstborn worse without actually looking at the FACTS I find

 Insectum7 wrote:
Side note: Since 8th, Tacticals have gained a very excellent tool compared to most earlier editions by way of the fact that every unit can split its fire, and doesn't have to charge the unit it fired at. Your Bolters can shoot infantry, your Lascannons can shoot tanks, and your Plasma can shoot at elite units, all at the same time. Brining four Tactical squads is the same as bringing another Devastator Squad, a bunch of Veterans with special weapons, and a bunch of bolter guys, but distributed more defensibly and better at claiming objectives. Plus, you get Combat Squads, so you can rearrange your models to suit your needs for the battle, mixing them into your transports to your hearts content. Imo they are one of the most interesting squads to use due to the deployment flexibility and range of transports available.

None of that really matters when you're dead. It's GK syndrome. There's a reason they lean on paladins. But we've been over this. You hate primaris, and I want to survive to punch things.

I haven't looked at the new points for these yet, so I could be off-base here, but I can see Tac squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks doing very well this edition. Cheap, fast transports will be very important I think.

I've been using Grey Hunters all last edition and will continue to be next edition, so I don't think tacticals are dead.

I get good value out of mine.

Lascannons are 15 points. Add plasma and combi plas and you got decent firepower.

Can confirm that tacticals are looking good this edition. So far - Shooting the stabby and stabbing the shooty is going to be really important this edition.
Especially now that tying up a vehicle is generally sub-par to just killing it.

Also Melee Dreads are back. Ran two Las/Fist dreads alongside a Las/Missile Dread. The threat that they exude around objectives is absolutely palpable. Toting a Twin Las around without a -1 to hit makes them very well rounded units

Agree on Tacs being nice too. Just the fact that they are cheap and versatile in a game where holding ground is the major wincon is good. Get 10, split them into combat squads with the heavy standing on the baseline objective and the Special one on the upfield one is enough. Primaris are the durability choice, which is one strategy, but the I prefer choices.

It´s simply annoying to have that lone crew camping in the backline that actually could put a dent in your assault blob that took the midfield objective.

CSMs are also going up in ultility. Pick 5 guys with Bolters and a ML and put them on the baseline while the other 5 picks a Special and Bolter/Chainswords for the upfield objective.

Scactha wrote:
Agree on Tacs being nice too. Just the fact that they are cheap and versatile in a game where holding ground is the major wincon is good. Get 10, split them into combat squads with the heavy standing on the baseline objective and the Special one on the upfield one is enough. Primaris are the durability choice, which is one strategy, but the I prefer choices.

It´s simply annoying to have that lone crew camping in the backline that actually could put a dent in your assault blob that took the midfield objective.

CSMs are also going up in ultility. Pick 5 guys with Bolters and a ML and put them on the baseline while the other 5 picks a Special and Bolter/Chainswords for the upfield objective.

I've been sticking autocannons and Reaper cannons in mine, and they have been pretty solid. For assault/up close units I've been giving them two plasma guns and putting them in a Rhino, and for distance or to hang back, I've been giving them autocannons or reaper cannons if the objects they are going to hold is further upfield. So far, in the 2 games, I've played with my black legion, they have not disappointed me at all. (and I love the strat to reroll all hits with black legion chaos marines, its been pretty cool to kind of magnify Abbadon's ability across the table).

Terminators feel like they have a new lease on life too. So do raptors (namely because warptime and smaller table can be pretty strong for tying up stuff you dont want running off to an objective unhindered).

Hell, even cultists don't feel awful at 6ppm, namely because I don't have to worry about losing the entire unit once 6 of them die or some such silliness. Playing them in smaller unit configurations, of like 10 or 15 to sit on backfield objectives and screen for better stuff has been fine, and while I know they went up dramatically in percentage cost, at the end of the day, its two more ppm, and it hasnt been game-breaking for me.

I think that they, like a lot of 'filler, might have a place depending on how secondarys and/or action objectives impact the meta as having cheapy units trading their damage for vp might be a thing plus with special weapons dropping the odd kill steal from the nu-marines is possible

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

Even Imperial Guard basically got Primaris Guardsmen (Tempestus Scions) as Troops. They hit more, survive more, have more flexibility, slightly less range (can be mitigated by a doctrine) - in general, they are just all round better, model for model.

Scions vs Tactical Marines - the difference just isn't as noticeable as with Guardsmen vs Tactical Marines.

 Slayer6 wrote:

 CappyBen wrote:
I am returning for 9th edition! The last time I played properly was back in 5th. A lot has changed and it looks like my faithful tactical marines are less relevant with the new primaris boys. My question is: are tactical boys still relevant or has the meta shifted completely to primaris specialist squads?

Even Imperial Guard basically got Primaris Guardsmen (Tempestus Scions) as Troops. They hit more, survive more, have more flexibility, slightly less range (can be mitigated by a doctrine) - in general, they are just all round better, model for model.

Scions vs Tactical Marines - the difference just isn't as noticeable as with Guardsmen vs Tactical Marines.

Honestly Dragons make Scions almost broken since it buffs the main relevant problem: double tapping after Deep Strike.