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Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






With GW pricing Meltaguns FAR BELOW what they should (or rather, they've priced most other options to where Melta are stupidly low in comparison) and the meta generally seeming to be lots of high armor threats to hold the middle, do you think we'll see SM and CSM (And perhaps every other faction with access to it) entering a brief meta of melta spam? I've seen more than one list online from higher level players that bring a fat unit of Terminators with combi-meltas, which is NOT something I thought i'd ever see.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






not all melta is equal.. An eradicator melta and platform is far superior to a fire dragon/storm guardian melta..

So my prediction is this will be an eradicator meta until they are nerfed into irrelevance or it will just keep being so..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 22:01:25


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

At the end of the day, most Melta is still just a 1 shot weapon. So while I'm personally glad that they are priced the same as Plasma, I don't think it's going to dominate the meta.

Basically what you'll start seeing is people actually taking melta for once, but there's still plenty of reasons to take units with Plasma too.

The real question is, if Melta and Plasma are 10ppm, why are Flamers not 5ppm?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 22:17:08


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 vaklor4 wrote:
With GW pricing Meltaguns FAR BELOW what they should (or rather, they've priced most other options to where Melta are stupidly low in comparison)
They are still no cheaper than plasmaguns. As long as you can mitigate (or don't care) about the 1s it is still going to be stronger than meltas in many cases.
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine



Ottawa

Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Lemondish wrote:
Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.


I like your optimism. have an exalt sir!

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

I do know that my CC knight is going to be rocking a meltagun instead of a heavy stubber. While I am generally more in favor of ranged weapons, the ability to fire it off in CC is too tempting to pass up.

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!' 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




SoB players aren't really entertaining Melta spam at the moment. If SoB aren't doing it, no one will. If they do it will show a poorly costed unit

Do you know what 40k melee needs? #FreetheFlagellants

Learn all your rules back to front. Stop trying to do the same for every other army. 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




Lemondish wrote:
Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.


What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand. Low-quantity-high-quality weapons are far from satisfactory in 40k nowadays, they purely rely on luck. For the Eradicators, a max unit of 3 are just 6 shots 24" range S8 weapons, on average they can't even melt a single Leman Russ or Wave Serpent in one go, unless the IG or Eldar player are stupid enough not to screen out the flank letting Eradicators coming in within 12" of your precious cars from strategic reserve.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 09:33:10


 
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

In the 'good old days' I used to love melta landspeeders. How do they look these days?

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.


What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand. Low-quantity-high-quality weapons are far from satisfactory in 40k nowadays, they purely rely on luck. For the Eradicators, a max unit of 3 are just 6 shots 24" range S8 weapons, on average they can't even melt a single Leman Russ or Wave Serpent in one go, unless the IG or Eldar player are stupid enough not to screen out the flank letting Eradicators coming in within 12" of your precious cars from strategic reserve.
"It can't kill a Leman Russ" isn't a counter to the argument that they are to good. What else can do comparable damage for the same cost?

How many points of Eradicator does it take to kill a Leman Russ on average dice, compared to how many points of any other unit?
that is the crux of the complaint.

As for the OP.
As other people have said, plasma being 2 shots compared to Melta's 1 will probably keep the Plasma as the go to weapon so long as you can get re-roll 1's.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 09:49:10


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Lammia wrote:
SoB players aren't really entertaining Melta spam at the moment. If SoB aren't doing it, no one will. If they do it will show a poorly costed unit
To be fair SoB don't get any bonuses from using melta weapons, they just don't have any alternatives.


Neophyte2012 wrote:
What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand.
Relative strength.
They have far more firepower for fewer points than comparable multimelta armed heavy infantry units.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





3 eradicators, cost 5 pts more in 9th then 1 obliterator.

Obliterators beeing one of the crown choices of a whole faction.

The 3 eradicators compare massively favourably against 1 obliterator.
Further 2 x 3 eradicators can be outlfanked for 1 CP.
Comparative melta capable units like chosen can only be 1x 5 be put into reserves for 1 CP. Not to mention the higher price for the chosen, at 15 ppm plus 50 for meltas you look at 125 pts for half range, 1 less shot, less W, less T, less A even.


that is the issue

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 09:54:35


   
Made in au
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







A.T. wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand.
Relative strength.
They have far more firepower for fewer points than comparable multimelta armed heavy infantry units.

While also being quite a bit more tough than most of those equivalent units. That's another key issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 09:56:14


 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




A.T. wrote:
Lammia wrote:
SoB players aren't really entertaining Melta spam at the moment. If SoB aren't doing it, no one will. If they do it will show a poorly costed unit
To be fair SoB don't get any bonuses from using melta weapons, they just don't have any alternatives.
It's the 'don't have any other options' that'll make sisters players experiment in a Melta meta before anyone else consider it. Barring certain unit problems.

At least that's my theory.

Do you know what 40k melee needs? #FreetheFlagellants

Learn all your rules back to front. Stop trying to do the same for every other army. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





not sure why we think Melta's are cheaply prices. the multi melta is 5 points more then a lascanon, and IMHO doesn't justify that price outside of drop pod devestators

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Lammia wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Lammia wrote:
SoB players aren't really entertaining Melta spam at the moment. If SoB aren't doing it, no one will. If they do it will show a poorly costed unit
To be fair SoB don't get any bonuses from using melta weapons, they just don't have any alternatives.
It's the 'don't have any other options' that'll make sisters players experiment in a Melta meta before anyone else consider it. Barring certain unit problems.
Yes, I was looking at the other part. If SoB melta spam it doesn't mean that it is poorly costed as they still have no alternative. It is when marines start taking meltaguns and multimeltas instead of their many other options - and given the cost of lascannons compared to multimeltas I don't see that happening any time soon.
   
Made in it
Dakka Veteran




Lammia wrote:
SoB players aren't really entertaining Melta spam at the moment. If SoB aren't doing it, no one will. If they do it will show a poorly costed unit


SoB are not the best users of Melta (unless we're talking about 32 pts MM Retributors which are plain and simple worse in every aspect than an Eradicator) since they pay 21 pts per Melta sister that has to footslog through the battlefield.

AM Command Squads and Scions are the best melta platforms for efficiency/cost right now (the former with 2 CP to Strategic Reserve 12 BS3+ Melta and the latter with integrated Deepstrike and additional rules/rerolls too)
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.


What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand. Low-quantity-high-quality weapons are far from satisfactory in 40k nowadays, they purely rely on luck. For the Eradicators, a max unit of 3 are just 6 shots 24" range S8 weapons, on average they can't even melt a single Leman Russ or Wave Serpent in one go, unless the IG or Eldar player are stupid enough not to screen out the flank letting Eradicators coming in within 12" of your precious cars from strategic reserve.


How much AT power you get for 40 pts? Twin multimelta btw costs alone 50 pts and is INFERIOR. And still needs something to carry.

4 twin autocannons? 8 shots at S7 -1 damn2. For same price you get 6 melta shot. Oh and you still need to pay for platform for twin autocannons.

Good luck finding something that costs 40 pts carrier included that does 2.33 damage to T8 3+ target.

12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Ordana wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.


What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand. Low-quantity-high-quality weapons are far from satisfactory in 40k nowadays, they purely rely on luck. For the Eradicators, a max unit of 3 are just 6 shots 24" range S8 weapons, on average they can't even melt a single Leman Russ or Wave Serpent in one go, unless the IG or Eldar player are stupid enough not to screen out the flank letting Eradicators coming in within 12" of your precious cars from strategic reserve.
"It can't kill a Leman Russ" isn't a counter to the argument that they are to good. What else can do comparable damage for the same cost?

How many points of Eradicator does it take to kill a Leman Russ on average dice, compared to how many points of any other unit?
that is the crux of the complaint.

As for the OP.
As other people have said, plasma being 2 shots compared to Melta's 1 will probably keep the Plasma as the go to weapon so long as you can get re-roll 1's.


I mean fire dragons, for one.

They actually do more damage for the points than eradicators. I think you get 5 FDs for 3 Erads and the FDs deal 10.9 wounds to a tank with average rolling (outside melta range) while the erads do like 9.4, I don't remember the math exactly but it's about there. Fire Dragons also get actual deep strike for 1cp while erads get somewhat easier to screen against strategic reserves deep strike.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Why do people keep assuming that you need to put eradicators in outflank they have 9 T5 3+ wounds with Move of 5 with 24 inch assualt weapons?

Firedragons have 6 T3, 3+ save wounds with 12inch weapons.

And cost 5 points less than eradicators. I'm not seeing how people think eradicators are doing less damage than Firedragons.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
I think you get 5 FDs for 3 Erads
If i'm not mistaken firedragons cost 33 points in 9th.
So 3 1/2 melta shots rerolling 1s to wound vs 6 shots at twice the distance.
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




KurtAngle2 wrote:
Lammia wrote:
SoB players aren't really entertaining Melta spam at the moment. If SoB aren't doing it, no one will. If they do it will show a poorly costed unit


SoB are not the best users of Melta (unless we're talking about 32 pts MM Retributors which are plain and simple worse in every aspect than an Eradicator) since they pay 21 pts per Melta sister that has to footslog through the battlefield.

AM Command Squads and Scions are the best melta platforms for efficiency/cost right now (the former with 2 CP to Strategic Reserve 12 BS3+ Melta and the latter with integrated Deepstrike and additional rules/rerolls too)
AM (and SM) can take plasma, or anything else that's better though. Sisters can't, and will try to make a semi-viable-but-not-really list if they can, because it's non melee, non vehicle based AT.

Do you know what 40k melee needs? #FreetheFlagellants

Learn all your rules back to front. Stop trying to do the same for every other army. 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
Given how much hate is being thrown towards Eradicators, they will get nerfed into being completely useless, so we might as well explore other melta platforms in the meantime.


What's the problem of Eradicator? I don't understand. Low-quantity-high-quality weapons are far from satisfactory in 40k nowadays, they purely rely on luck. For the Eradicators, a max unit of 3 are just 6 shots 24" range S8 weapons, on average they can't even melt a single Leman Russ or Wave Serpent in one go, unless the IG or Eldar player are stupid enough not to screen out the flank letting Eradicators coming in within 12" of your precious cars from strategic reserve.
"It can't kill a Leman Russ" isn't a counter to the argument that they are to good. What else can do comparable damage for the same cost?

How many points of Eradicator does it take to kill a Leman Russ on average dice, compared to how many points of any other unit?
that is the crux of the complaint.

As for the OP.
As other people have said, plasma being 2 shots compared to Melta's 1 will probably keep the Plasma as the go to weapon so long as you can get re-roll 1's.


I mean fire dragons, for one.

They actually do more damage for the points than eradicators. I think you get 5 FDs for 3 Erads and the FDs deal 10.9 wounds to a tank with average rolling (outside melta range) while the erads do like 9.4, I don't remember the math exactly but it's about there. Fire Dragons also get actual deep strike for 1cp while erads get somewhat easier to screen against strategic reserves deep strike.
I must be missing something here. how do 5 shots outside Melta range do more damage then 6 shots inside melta range? (both at 12")
re-rolling 1's to wound isn't going to make up that difference. The Eradicators are slightly ahead even outside of Melta range.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
A.T. wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I think you get 5 FDs for 3 Erads
If i'm not mistaken firedragons cost 33 points in 9th.
So 3 1/2 melta shots rerolling 1s to wound vs 6 shots at twice the distance.
they are 23. FDs don't pay for the fusion gun.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/30 12:43:25


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





I was not assuming theyre both at 12". Eradicators will either walk from the DZ or Outflank, in both instances it should be pretty trivial to keep them outside 12". with fire dragons having full DS thats a lot tougher.

It seems slightly disingenuous to assume 2 units with very different delivery methods would be equally able to attack at the same range.
   
Made in au
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







The Exarch re-rolls Hit Rolls of a 1, which I believe slightly increases the damage just above that of Eradicators. Not by all that much though (by my calculations it's FDs deal 9.38 compared to 9.33 dealt by Eradicators against a T7 3+ save vehicle). Calculation were made just assuming each were in range, rather than within half like with scotsman's originally. If we assume both are within 12", then the Eradicators are far more favoured.

Of course, Eradicators are like 3x as durable as Fire Dragons are, and need a lot more wounds dealt into them to have their damage output dropoff.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/30 13:06:39


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I would also point out that if your playing on the new minimum size tournament tables zoning out 9 deepstriking is actually kinda scary easy to do, like it rarely seems to take a concerted effort or list with objective placement etc. DZ that isn't turn 1or shenanigans is probably going to be limited in use on the smaller boards.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Yeah, erads are transparently the better unit due to range and durability.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

the_scotsman wrote:
They actually do more damage for the points than eradicators. I think you get 5 FDs for 3 Erads and the FDs deal 10.9 wounds to a tank with average rolling (outside melta range) while the erads do like 9.4, I don't remember the math exactly but it's about there. Fire Dragons also get actual deep strike for 1cp while erads get somewhat easier to screen against strategic reserves deep strike.


Nah, Fire Dragons don't do more damage. Assume a T8/3+ vehicle 9" away, so Fire Dragons are outside melta range, Eradicators are within melta range.

5 Fire Dragons get 5 shots. The Exarch can re-roll 1s to hit, so average 3.44 hits. All can re-roll 1s to wound, so average 2 wounds, for 7 wounds inflicted.

3 Eradicators get 6 shots, average 4 hits, 2 wounds, average 9 wounds inflicted (thanks to melta).

Their output is the same (9 wounds average for both) within 6". Obviously only the Eradicators can shoot outside 12", optional Exarch firepike excluded.

The biggest issue with Eradicators is that a 24" range + Assault type means a 29" threat range, which on a smaller board means popping tanks T1, whereas Fire Dragons have to come in via DS to be useful, meaning T2 at the earliest, and can be easily screened out since they only have 12" of range.

On top of that, the Fire Dragons have 5 T3/3+ wounds, while the Eradicators have 9 T5/3+ wounds, making them dramatically harder to kill- about four times more durable against bolt rifles (let alone bolters or lasguns), so they're not something you can just allocate normal rifles to; they require some flavor of anti-tank weapon.

tl;dr the damage output is about the same, but Eradicators can do it from much farther away, don't need DS to make it work, and are dramatically more likely to survive to shoot again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/30 15:53:59


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Yep, eradicators are definitely a better unit than fire dragons. Just the distinction between 9 T5 3+ wounds vs 5 T3 3+ wounds does that on the face of it. The fire dragons do ignore the advance and shoot penalty, and can get the "roll 3 and take the highest advance roll" exarch power, which means you can get them in range to take a shot outside melta range turn 1 if you start them in a Falcon (10"+12" range+5" average advance roll with 3d6) but they're much, MUCH more likely to be a pure suicide unit than the erads.

Honestly, I don't think the vehicle-> antivehicle meta will last all that long. I think people are sleeping on how you actually WIN the missions in 9th, and it'll quickly become apparent that investing too heavily into tanks or things to kill tanks leaves you open to stuff like "yo heres my list of a million 10-man plaguebearer squads, nurglings, and assorted other nurgle stuff have fun killing me!"

   
 
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