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In order to reduce the impact of blast weapons on horde armies I propose the following:

Current Blast Rules:

Unit Size --- Minimum Attacks
0 - 5 -----------------1
6 - 10 --------------- 3
10+ ------------------ Max

Proposed Blast Rules:

Unit Size --- Minimum Attacks
0 - 5 ----------------1
6 - 10 -------------- 2
10+ ----------------- 3

Thoughts?

That's not the current rules.

It's 1-5 is normal, 6-10 is min 3, 11+ is MAX shots.

But I actually have a different idea for Blast. The min value on each rolled die is equal to the number of models in the targeted squad divided by 5, rounding up.

Or, to put it another way, here's what it would be:

Unit Size...............Min d6...............Min d3
1-5...........................1..........................1
6-10.........................2..........................1
11-15.......................3...........................2
16-20.......................4...........................2
21-25.......................5...........................3
26+..........................6...........................3

Note that that is per die. So a Thunderfire Cannon, with 4d3, shooting at a squad of 11-20, gets 8-12 shots. Any die that shows a 1 or 2 would be increased to grant 2 shots, rather than 1. An Exorcist Conflagration Rocket, which rolls 3d6, against a squad of 22 models rolls 3d6, with any results of 1-4 being changed to 5.

I feel it makes the scaling a lot smoother, and doesn't result in wonkiness where a Wyvern's Stormshard has no changed minimum 1-10, but suddenly gets 24 shots at 11+ guys.

I'm not a fan of excessive counting of models - over 10 is easy to work out, but whether there are 24 or 25 orks in the middle squad... ...ugh, don't want to have to count them again.

I prefer the idea of:

If there are 6-10 models, the entire roll has a minimum of 3 shots. If there are 11+ models, each dice has a minimum of 3 shots.

So a single D6 weapon does minimum 3 shots for 6+ models, and this doesn't change at 11+.

a 2D6 weapon does minimum of 3 shots for 6+ models, and a minimum of 6 shots for 11+

a wyvern does minimum 3 shots for 6+ (effectively 4, as quadruple ones is minimum) and minimum 12 shots for 11+ models.

any 1D3 weapons would do maximum shots on 6+ squads, but lack the distance to improve in bigger squads of 11+. multiple D3 weapons would do maximum shots on 11+ units.


I like the idea of having a brilliantly good roll on a wyvern when you're targeting that big unit, and having it automatically happen takes a little something away from the game, to me. instead increasing any dice which rolls less than 3 to a 3 when shooting a horde makes it still more effective, but also has the chance to shine on a good roll - those moments which you remember in a game.

I... don't think I hate where blasts are in 9th, personally. We had plenty of threads in 8th about how to improve blasts, and one of the main topics of discussion there was that they should be more effective against hordes. The 9th edition rules do that without increasing the maximum damage of blasts. Do people feel 9th edition's blast rules are too lethal? Should blasts not be more effective against hordes than against other targets?

Wyldhunt wrote:
I... don't think I hate where blasts are in 9th, personally. We had plenty of threads in 8th about how to improve blasts, and one of the main topics of discussion there was that they should be more effective against hordes. The 9th edition rules do that without increasing the maximum damage of blasts. Do people feel 9th edition's blast rules are too lethal? Should blasts not be more effective against hordes than against other targets?

It feels too abrupt to me.

1-5 having no special effects is fine.
6-10 having min 3 is kinda fine, but weird that it doesn't affect anything with 3+ dice.
11+ giving max shots is just kinda... It's not even that the math is that bad, it's just kinda silly to have a Wyvern go from 4-24 shots at 1-10 models, to always getting 24 as soon as you add number 11.

I agree that it is too abrupt. But I also find JNAs proposal too complex. I changed the OP to the proper rules.

APEX wrote:
I agree that it is too abrupt. But I also find JNAs proposal too complex. I changed the OP to the proper rules.

Minimum 3 does nothing for anything using 2d6 or 3d3 shots when hitting 30 model units.

If you want to avoid steps then it has to be a per die minimum
1-5= no bonus
6-10 = minimum 2 per die
11-15 = minimum 3 per die
16-20 =minimum 4 per die
21-25 = minimum 5 per die
26 + = minimum 6 per die

However the issue isn't just the random shot count it's also GW not having a clear design intention and vision of how they intended to transition blast weapons from templates to 8th edition.

We still have tons of weapons that have been uncompetitive trash since index days that are still awaiting fixes.

Ice_can wrote:

APEX wrote:
I agree that it is too abrupt. But I also find JNAs proposal too complex. I changed the OP to the proper rules.

Minimum 3 does nothing for anything using 2d6 or 3d3 shots when hitting 30 model units.

If you want to avoid steps then it has to be a per die minimum
1-5= no bonus
6-10 = minimum 2 per die
11-15 = minimum 3 per die
16-20 =minimum 4 per die
21-25 = minimum 5 per die
26 + = minimum 6 per die

However the issue isn't just the random shot count it's also GW not having a clear design intention and vision of how they intended to transition blast weapons from templates to 8th edition.

We still have tons of weapons that have been uncompetitive trash since index days that are still awaiting fixes.

That suggestion works, but I think it's very clunky. As you say, I think the real solution might come through updating the weapons themselves. The reason we have everything ranging from D3 to 4D6 through various combinations of dice and re-roll mechanics is because there previously was no Blast so GW tried a whole bunch of things to get it to work. I think changing stuff like the Wyvern from 4D6 to a lower number of dice overall might fix a lot of the discrepancy.

Ice_can wrote:

APEX wrote:
I agree that it is too abrupt. But I also find JNAs proposal too complex. I changed the OP to the proper rules.

Minimum 3 does nothing for anything using 2d6 or 3d3 shots when hitting 30 model units.

If you want to avoid steps then it has to be a per die minimum
1-5= no bonus
6-10 = minimum 2 per die
11-15 = minimum 3 per die
16-20 =minimum 4 per die
21-25 = minimum 5 per die
26 + = minimum 6 per die

However the issue isn't just the random shot count it's also GW not having a clear design intention and vision of how they intended to transition blast weapons from templates to 8th edition.

We still have tons of weapons that have been uncompetitive trash since index days that are still awaiting fixes.

That's... That's what I said.

I had a table and everything.

I like your solution a lot Ice Can. I will use it.

I wouldn't use anything that needs players to count the number of models to such a degree of detail every time. "over 10" is easily eyeballed when there are 15+ models, and quickly counted if there are less.

I also dislike the idea of any random shot weapon getting guaranteed maximum shots, ever.

 some bloke wrote:

I also dislike the idea of any random shot weapon getting guaranteed maximum shots, ever.

Why's that? Max shots doesn't mean max hits. It's just another way of increasing the average likely performance of the weapon. How is getting max shots different from, say, a captain's reroll aura or Guide or My Will Be Done or the Catachan regimental bonus?

Sincere question. I'm genuinely curious as to what you perceive the difference to be.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 some bloke wrote:

I also dislike the idea of any random shot weapon getting guaranteed maximum shots, ever.

Why's that? Max shots doesn't mean max hits. It's just another way of increasing the average likely performance of the weapon. How is getting max shots different from, say, a captain's reroll aura or Guide or My Will Be Done or the Catachan regimental bonus?

Sincere question. I'm genuinely curious as to what you perceive the difference to be.

I guess I feel that any mechanic which overrides one of the steps in a weapons firing to be a bit rubbish. I much prefer the idea of weapons having increasing minimum shot, but with there still being potential for a lucky turn with extras. That's why I suggested 1-5 being normal,6-10 being minimum 3 per weapon, and then 11+ being minimum 3 per dice. That way you're guaranteed to eradicate the below-average section of your probability curve, without getting rid of the fun (and as a long-term ork play, I call it fun) of random amounts of attacks. If you offered everyone with a wyvern the opportunity for their guns to do a minimum of 3 shots per dice (before the new blast rules were released) they would have bitten your hand off. I don't like removing the roll.

It's not a lot different to seeing marines reroll everything, but at least there's still a chance of those rolls failing. Now we have to consider blasts, with the reroll auras on top. max shots in a fair fight is fine, but I'd bet most of them will be getting reroll this or reroll that.

I would have loved for blast to have been a bit of a leveler, like it used to be in the template era, where your BS was largely irrelevant. I would have loved for them to have ignored all bonuses, penalties, and other such things, and always hit on flat BS no matter what auras or abilities were in play. You're invisible? boom, blew up the area. You're guiding me? boom, blew up the area. it's an explosion, not a sniper rifle. You shouldn't be able to guide the shrapnel!