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OVERVIEW:

My friend Corey and I are getting back into 6th edition and our first battle we will be able to play since coronavirus has broken out will be Sat. Aug 29th. We are familiar with Wood Elves and Orcs & Goblins but pretty new to the two armies we will be using (Lizardmen vs Tomb Kings).

The battle will be a "Pitched Battle", 1500 pts, no other unusual restrictions Scenario wise. Winner determined by Victory Points as described in the 6th ed book. We will be playing in Khemri or in a neutral rink so no need to take special Lustria jungle rules into consideration.

HOUSE RULES: This season of battles is to help us prepare for our campaign. We are playing in 6th edition with all of the related 6th edition books.

House Rules, Custom Units, and other Special Considerations For the Campaign
1. Wood Elf flying units can take-off and land in their magic extra Fey Wood terrain feature, and in ANY Woods/Forest terrain feature IF they are in Athel Loren.
2. Insane Courage – A unit which rolls double 1’s on its Break Test passes no matter what, standing strong. THIS EVEN SUPERCEDES THE "Fear Autobreak"
3. Power Dice – The power dice generated by each individual wizard can only be used by him/her
4. Dispell Scrolls -- Dispell Scrolls DO dispel spells cast with Irresistible Force.
5. Lizardmen Great Lizards— The Coatl and Great Wyrm from the 2004 Annual Book are considered legal choices for Lizardmen to take, as well as the Thunder Lizard and Arcanodon Engine of the Gods.
These "Great Lizards" lose their "Territorial" special rule if taken as part of a normal Lizardmen Army. A Saurus OldBlood may take a Great Wyrm as a mount (if he takes Blessed Spawning of Itzl) for 260 pts. The Great Wyrm would still occupy a Rare Unit slot.
6. High Elf Lion Chariot, Goblin Spider Riders, Lizardmen Cold One Chariot (if it exists?), and some other models that weren't made yet in 2005 may be used as long as their rules/stats are made to fit 6th ed
7. Dark Elves are using their 6th Edition Army Book supplemented/superseded by the “Druchii Revisited” Article in White Dwarf
8. Monsters with Breath weapons MAY use their breath weapons as a Stand and Shoot reaction and even in close combat (Still not Salamanders though)
9.Anti-Cavalry Buff – Any Unit that may normally equip spears for +2 pts/model (Orc Boyz, Saurus Warriors) may instead choose to upgrade to equipping pikes for +6 pts/model
Units that are ALREADY spearmen (Dark Elf Warriors, High Elf Spearmen) may upgrade to equipping pikes for +4 pts/model
9A. All Goblins, all Wood Elves, High Elves' Lothern Sea Guard, and all Tomb Kings are all excluded from this option (although all the rules for hiring the actual Dogs of War Pikemen unit from Tilea remain unchanged for these armies)
9B. To keep a small incentive for choosing the mercenary Pikemen unit from Tilea, and to reflect the High Elves Spearmen's "Fight in an Extra Rank" rule, Pikes fight in 3 ranks instead of 4 unless you are using the DoW Tilea Pikemen unit or High Elves. All other rules for pikes are as they appear on page 57 of the 2004 Annual book under "Pikes"



INVENTORY OF AVAILABLE MODELS:

We recently aquired a good amount of Lizardmen from the depths of the internet, you can see them in the attached picture. We are going to base everything properly before the battle.
The cavalry appear to be Southland Skinks riding Horned Ones rather than Saurus Cav on Cold Ones.
NOTA BENE: We allow each other to play any legit unit in the army list even if we don't have that model, as long as we use a model we agree represents it that has the proper size base. We have 6 armies and every size of base so any unit is in play here, I just prefer to use something that looks good if I can.


INITAL THOUGHTS ON ARMY LIST:
Attached in the excel is my rough draft at a viable army list to take down Tomb Kings in pitched battle. Please feel free to audit this list for point values, to ask questions if my excel is designed for a madman like me instead of a normal human, and to offer constructive criticism to refine this list to beat Tomb Kings.
Corey has won the lion's share of our recent games so don't hold back on a comp that really allows me to shred him and redeem myself.

One thing stands out: Saurus Cavalry can't take any blessed spawnings. The rules for spawnings says that only Saurus Warriors and characters can take them, which means no Quetzl on your cavalry for a 2+ armour save.

Does Corey like to use chariots? If he does and you want to be nasty you could run the infamous Jaguar Saurus of Doom (JSoD) to counter them. Take a Scar-Veteran on foot and give him a great weapon and the charm of the jaguar warrior (20p). With an 18'' charge range and four S7 attacks he will be a proper wrecking ball on his own. He would probably replace your current Scar-Veteran to keep the points similar.

Aside from that, prepare to defend against some evil magic. I would focus on defence and give your priest a dispel scroll. If Corey brings a Casket of Soul you must save enough dice or keep the scroll to stop it. You could even be tempted to swap the cloak of feathers out for a second dispel scroll, the TK's magic phase can be just that good.

I would fatten up your Saurus Warriors a little bit by dropping maybe one of the Kroxigors and some Cavalry. Saurus are solid and steady but more numbers is always good. Aim for 15-16, I can see you've got that many in the picture.

Are the undead immune to poison or not? If not, recommend you reduce the kroxigors to 3 and get another unit of skinks, and enlarge the saurus a little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are the undead immune to poison or not? If not, recommend you reduce the kroxigors to 3 and get another unit of skinks, and enlarge the saurus a little.

Also, take at least one dispel scroll

Thank you guys so much for the thoughtful responses.

Thank you to Cebalrai for pointing out my error on the cavalry. I am removing that and re-allocating the points.

Thanks also to Moscha- I've looked into the Undead army book and from what I can tell the Undead are NOT immune to poison. Also, especially considering the way TK play and the way Corey and I interpret Dispel Scrolls, I am absolutely going to add at least one.

I have dropped the Cold One cavalry to make room for a second skink priest to really be able to bring dispel dice. I have faced TK a total of one time in the past and the Casket of Souls wrecked me. That's why I wanted to deploy chameleons as scouts, to hit a backline casket if needed.
Feel free to add more constructive criticism here and let me know if I'm getting warmer or colder. I beefed up the saurus, gave them the scaly skin blessing, beefed up the General, already mentioned the priests/scrolls. I had to reduce my Krox but ive added another skink screen and 20" Terradons for backline harry.

ATTACHED: LIZARDMEN 1500 PT ARMY LIST DRAFT #2

This looks quite okay to me. Some more ideas to consider: Whatever melee you're going to pick, make sure you are not outnumbered. Fear plus outnumbered makes you auto fail your break test. Or else, See that the Stegadon is also in combat, because it is stubborn and causes terror, and will therefore only break if you fail your cold blooded test on 3d6-1d >6
If you get the chance, try a teradon attack on his priests. They have low stats and can bevjilled even by a lowly teradon and a skink on top, if you are lucky. If not, you can break from combat and will most likelx escape. Killing his priests is al5most always worth the risk, as he is highly dependant on their spells to make his army work

Moscha, would you recommend dropping another Kroxigor to free up 58 pts to pump into my Saurus to ensure they're never outnumbered? Or should I go the other way and add more Krox because they cause Fear and therefore don't worry about Fear?
With 20 skinks acting as kill screens (and this kill screen, according to my math, has only about a 6% chance of panicking with Cold Blooded as long as they are using the Gen's LD, even if they get smacked with shooting/magic) I figured my 19 Saurus and their General would virtually always have numbers, but I'm still pretty new.

My gameplan is definitely going to be to try and shut down his Characters as quickly as possible with my Chameleons, Terradons, and any offensive magic I can muster.
I'm going to walk the Saurus with General right up the middle with Skinks out front and the Steg and Krox on either side, with the priests operating close enough in the back of the mix to stay un-targetable by shooting/magic missiles.
It's a simple plan but I'm hoping with 2 dispel scrolls and solid dispel dice I can keep a Casket silenced long enough to let my backliners do some assassination work.


I'm taking a second look at my Magic Items, too. I'm not sure how valuable it would actually be to have my Scar-Vet ever take advantage of his Jaguar charm to counter-charge chariots if I no longer have Cold One cavalry on the board to close the gap with him.
I'm looking at maybe some kind of Ward save for one of my Characters? Maybe even this Blood Statuette of Spite that lets me target any enemy character for a Toughness test. His Priests will only be T3 so it's a 50/50 chance of a wound if I can get it off successfully...

I think your Saurus Unit is large enough with 19models. If Iremember correctly, other than Vampire Counts, Khemri cannot increase the number of models in a unit above the initial value.
Other than skellies or maybe, maybe, a large cavalry unit or chariot unit, there shouldnt be anything with US20 or more.

Question: I'm actually now unsure about Undead and poisoned attacks. In the Tomb Kings rulebook, they don't list Immune to Poison as one of their special rules. However, in the main Warhammer rulebook, when describing Poisoned Attacks they say "Unliving troop types are immune". In the TK book they say, "These Undead rules are different from other Undeads like Vampire Counts, TK are the following... then they go on to list a lot of rules but never mention poison. So are "Unliving troop types" distinct from TK?

Also, blowpipes are NOT to be treated as "thrown weapons" right?
It doesn't list that as a rule for them, just says Multiple Shots, theyre not thrown, and they list a Strength of the weapon whereas Thrown Weapons strength is the strength of the thrower.


UPDATE: Did some digging and this Undead/poison question is answered on page 117 of the 2004 Chronicles book. Undead are NOT immune to poison. "The reference to unliving targets in the poison description means chariots, war engines, buildings, and such like."

Attached is hopefully my Final Draft

Feel free to poke holes in it and force me to make it better.

My only regret is not finding room in the budget for some Salamander hunting packs.
With the ability to use flaming attacks against his flammable Prince and some good speed and Cause Fear to negate TK fear, they look pretty cool, but I just have a specific purpose for all 3 of my Special Units already, and somehow no other TK units are actually flammable.

Salamanders usually wind up being the units of the match in most of our games. Mass volumes of poison shots are your best bet with some magic denial. Skink movement will keep charges from being a thing against infantry, but will leave you vulnerable to cav and chariots. Swarms work great as chaff for such units


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, check out classichammer.com for some 6th batreps and maybe some list ideas, as well as seeing some actual performance of said units rather than potential output

I tried making an account to post on classichammer but for some reason Ive never been able to log in.


Just Tony, can you explain the benfits of swarms? Ive never played with/against any.


UPDATE: OK, so I'm seeing that each model has 5 wounds for 60 points and they are Unbreakable. so that WOULD be able to jump out in front and chopblock some charging TK chariots.... very interesting that these guys are Core slot as well...

AND they have poisoned attacks.



The admin at classichammer is redoing the software which will hopefully fix the automated application process. I'll ask if he'd be willing to do the mod approval sign up setting which means I'll personally go through every application. As long as your IP isn't registered as a spam IP I'd get it approved fast enough. I'll PM you if I can make that dream a reality.

OK no huge rush. Ive taken a look through that site and our House Rules are formed by what we read there.

All the help and advice has been great. Would you recommend moving something around in the budget to free up 180 pts for 3 swarm bases?
If so, where would you trim? Dropping an ENTIRE unit of Skink expendables only gives me enough for 1 base, and I'm not sure where else I could really go.
Maybe if I dropped a unit of Skink Skirmishers, AND a Krox, I could squeeze two swarm bases in, but would that be enough to be effective?


Thanks again to everybody for all the support.

As soon as I can pull this up on a computer I'll look at the lists...

Just a little remark, in your latest version you changed the magic items of your scar veteran, but not the movement rate.

It should be reading 4 inches now


Thanks again. I think i could be in a position to get a win here

With your last revision I'd say you're pretty set except I personally don't see the value of a Stegadon at that point level. I'd nix it to get some Swarms or Salamanders, but my play style may be different than yours.

I'll definitely take a look at reinvesting that 235 pts. We have the model and i thought "oh wow! Heavy chariot bolt thrower thats immune to panic!"

I might have gotten swept up and overlooked the value of swarms or salamanders since ive never played with those, especially since im not going to be getting any value out of the Terror a Steg provides.

Thank you a ton for looking at this and providing good constructive criticism.

The very least I could do...

MattyFenby wrote:
Attached is hopefully my Final Draft

Feel free to poke holes in it and force me to make it better.

My only regret is not finding room in the budget for some Salamander hunting packs.
With the ability to use flaming attacks against his flammable Prince and some good speed and Cause Fear to negate TK fear, they look pretty cool, but I just have a specific purpose for all 3 of my Special Units already, and somehow no other TK units are actually flammable.

Cant you just copy paste the list into the thread so we don't have to download it.

Orlanth- will do; see below.

Just Tony- after a lot of hemming and hawing I decided to sub out the Stegadon for 3 Salamanders and used the leftover 40 points on another Dispel Scroll and another chameleon.


Final FINAL List:

SAURUS SCAR VETERAN, GREAT WEAPON, SCALY SKIN (5+), BLESSED SPAWNING OF QUETZL
(GENERAL) LIGHT ARMOUR (3+ TOTAL ARMOUR SAVE) BLOOD STATUETTE OF SPITE 136

LVL 2 SKINK PRIEST DISPEL SCROLL X2 150
LVL 2 SKINK PRIEST DISPEL SCROLL X1 125

SKINK SKIRMISHERS X 10 60
SKINK SKIRMISHERS X 10 60
SAURUS WARRIORS X 19 MUSICIAN, STANDARD, BLESSED SPAWNING OF QUETZL 276

KROXIGORS x 4 232
CHAMELEON SKINKS x 8 CHAMPION (STALKER) 126
TERRADONS X 4 140

SALAMANDER HUNTING PACKS X 3 195

Now that's a pretty decent list. The fun part is how scouting can position you to pepper all his stuff with poison shots while you get your battle line in position to finish the job.

I dont see anything wrong with the list, I would take more saurus but you have what you have.
Its a good choice allowing for the materials available to you.

We are NOT limited by the models in the photo, my buddy would accept me using orcs or whatever the proper base model is.

What would you suggest I drop to make room for more saurus? What is the reasoning behind needing more?

The reason to have more Saurus is because ranked anvil units form the main body of any good army. As it stands you have 1 anvil combat unit, 1 hammer combat unit, a ton of shooting, fairly aggressive magic, 1 chaff/charge intercept unit, and the Jack of all trades Chaneleon Skink unit. Your army isn't bad by any stretch, but it will take some finesse to be effective. 2 blocks of Saurus gives you a little more forgiving base.

As with everything list building, there's no right answer other than the FOC.

Considering the point value of 1500, he has a big enough amount of points invested in the saurus unit,I think. Iam really looking forward to hearing how you fared against Tomb Kings

Yeah I think I'm gonna stick with this; theres nothing in here that I would want to drop to make room for more saurus.

We're exchanging lists on Saturday 8/22 so I will have a week to come up with a game plan. Battle is Saturday 8/29

I'll try and make a good battle report for you guys so I can see where I made mistakes and what worked.


You guys are awesome though thank you very much for all your help and expertise

Corey has sent his list over so I am poring over it trying to find weaknesses and make a plan. It is as follows:

HEROES:
Tomb Prince on chariot. Light Armour, Great Weapon, Chariot of Fire talisman, 176
Liche Priest with casket of souls and one dispel scroll 305

CORE:
Skeleton Warriors x 12 96
Skeleton Heavy Horsemen x 12 192

SPECIAL:
Tomb Guard x 20 240
Ushabti x 4 260
Chariots x 4 Champion, Mirage Standard, Musician 230

RARE:
Casket of Souls takes a slot


Any thoughts for what I need to focus on bringing my final list against this? Shutting down the Casket and trying to kill his Heroes seems like the obvious points for me. Ideally I'd like my Krox lined up opposite his Chariots so I can benefit from their Str 7 auto-kills on Chariots.

The chariots can pivot pretty easily so I wouldn't get baited into leaving your croxigors on a flank. If you can kill the casket his army will start to crumble. You should have magic superiority, I think that if you can take away his speed you can take your time and pick him apart. I think the casket is a poor pick for him because he's going to need to protect it with his slower elements, which means you should get whatever charges you want.