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So far the most interesting option are hellhounds, basilisks and wyverns. But are any other good? Baneblades seem like easily killable point sinks, are death strike missile launchers any good?
Specifically for catachan in 9th edition.

I haven’t run any math-hammer this edition, but Catachans normally get more from Manticores than Basilisks... two dice refilling the lowest (if necessary) will generally outperform the Bassie, since it can (still?) reroll number of shots by default.

Russ with Plasma sponsons and Harker to babysit output incredible firepower on a consistent basis.

Cool thanks for the info. I was thinking about a Russ, just the standard turret?

Andredre wrote:
Cool thanks for the info. I was thinking about a Russ, just the standard turret?

Ive been having really good results with the demolisher due to the smaller board size and objective based games. The D6 damage is hot

 Billagio wrote:

Andredre wrote:
Cool thanks for the info. I was thinking about a Russ, just the standard turret?

Ive been having really good results with the demolisher due to the smaller board size and objective based games. The D6 damage is hot

Cool that sounds like a good idea. I’m gonna try to magnetize for variety.

Are any FW tanks or artillery good this edition? Thus far Atleast

I'm not 100% sure but the Carnodon might be worth it. It's still really cheap, does not suffer from moving anymore and is pretty fast.
Quad Multilaser is only 80 points, so extremely cheap for 10 T7 3+ wounds, quad Volkite is 120 and not too shaby against Primaris.

But the model is not cheap in $ and should really all Multimeltas get two shots and 1d6+2 damage as some imply from the datasheet from the new Marine thingy it definitly has some problems.

Also Macharius Vulcan is still a pretty mean Primaris shredder with 30 (if standing still) S6 AP -2 D2 shots.

Last but not least: the Forgeworld FAQ was a bit weird in including the Malcador Defender and Annihilator in the list of Vehicles that can doubletap their turret weapons like Leman Russ. Weird because the Defender has no turret and only it's Demolisher is in the list of "turret weapons". IF they should really change it in a way that lets Defenders doubletap the 5 heavy bolters in their "turret" it might be worth it to rerun the Math if it can compete with the LR Punisher

Tank commanders and taurox primes are pretty clearly head and shoulders above the rest. Manticores are actually probably worth a look.

Something that just occurred to me, is with the new blast rules, rerolling # of shots will be less significant... but dropping Manticore shots on a big blob of infantry with it's max 12 shots?

Niiiice.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Something that just occurred to me, is with the new blast rules, rerolling # of shots will be less significant... but dropping Manticore shots on a big blob of infantry with it's max 12 shots?

Niiiice.

Ahem, wyvern?

Razerous wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Something that just occurred to me, is with the new blast rules, rerolling # of shots will be less significant... but dropping Manticore shots on a big blob of infantry with it's max 12 shots?

Niiiice.

Ahem, wyvern?

Yeah, I'm excited about breaking my wyverns out.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
I'm not 100% sure but the Carnodon might be worth it. It's still really cheap, does not suffer from moving anymore and is pretty fast.
Quad Multilaser is only 80 points, so extremely cheap for 10 T7 3+ wounds, quad Volkite is 120 and not too shaby against Primaris.

But the model is not cheap in $ and should really all Multimeltas get two shots and 1d6+2 damage as some imply from the datasheet from the new Marine thingy it definitly has some problems.

Also Macharius Vulcan is still a pretty mean Primaris shredder with 30 (if standing still) S6 AP -2 D2 shots.

Last but not least: the Forgeworld FAQ was a bit weird in including the Malcador Defender and Annihilator in the list of Vehicles that can doubletap their turret weapons like Leman Russ. Weird because the Defender has no turret and only it's Demolisher is in the list of "turret weapons". IF they should really change it in a way that lets Defenders doubletap the 5 heavy bolters in their "turret" it might be worth it to rerun the Math if it can compete with the LR Punisher

Nice thanks for the info.

Does anyone know if a sentinel with flamer and chainsaw would be good? They seem really cost efficient but I don’t want to commit and then they suck later lol. They would be a fluffy addition to the catachan.

Catachan banehammer with 10 heavy flamers, 4 lascannon, and the banehammer special ability to slow down the enemy to 1/2 move ... and thus prevent them getting away from the 10 flamers, hopefully.

On average, 6 or 7 hits by the main gun, followed by 40 hits with the flamers and 2 with lascannons.

Not crap! Pair it with an astropath and an old grudges warlord to ignore cover AND reroll wounds vs a high priority target.

Seriously dangerous now, even to big things, and terrifying at close range.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Catachan banehammer with 10 heavy flamers, 4 lascannon, and the banehammer special ability to slow down the enemy to 1/2 move ... and thus prevent them getting away from the 10 flamers, hopefully.

On average, 6 or 7 hits by the main gun, followed by 40 hits with the flamers and 2 with lascannons.

Not crap! Pair it with an astropath and an old grudges warlord to ignore cover AND reroll wounds vs a high priority target.

Seriously dangerous now, even to big things, and terrifying at close range.

The problem with Baneblade variants is that they are a huge point sink and can get shot down in one round. Do you really think a catachan Banehammer could really be that dangerous, I just don’t want to invest that much money and time modeling for it to be underwhelming. I need some Astropaths tho definitely.


Btw the marcharius seems real interesting.

@ Andrede: I don't think the Sentinel chainsaw will make that much of a difference. It looks cool, but the Sentinels don't have the number of attacks and WS that it would really matter that much. Than again: it was relatively cheap I think 2 points? So why not. You can easily magnetize it.

Regarding the heavy flamer: yes I think they might work well that way. Especially if used to charge stuff.

On a related note: with our Superheavies being able to shoot any target even if something touched them while infantry in CC can only shoot their pistols it might be situational worth it to really go für charges, especially against heavy anti tank infantry. Bonus points if one could manage to trap them. Imagine a Baneblade in CC with some Eradicators that are caught between him and some obstacle they cannot cross. They can't fire their Meltarifles, should not be able to kill him in CC and he can still fire at whatever he wants while being untargetable. And if he chooses to only use bis standard CC he can keep his catch alive for quite some time.

Hard to pull of, but awesome if one manages to.

My own current dogma in ninth is using a lot of vendettas .. so yeah, it takes a hell of a land tank to offset 18 lascannon worth of shooting, with just a main gun and 4 lascannon. Its especially vulnerable to things getting a -1 to be hit, which can make for a frustrating lot of misses from the big gun, or lack of line of sight to the target you MUST kill, or someone else putting their melta squads in reserve and popping them out 11.89 inches away.

So yeah, I recognize downsides, but think its possble (depending on where the meta ends up) that we may see some flamers on leman russes and even baneblades in ninth getting real play. Cause of all those rerolls and no need to hit.

In 8th edition we had free overwatch for all.

In 9th we have optional overwatch at the cost of CP, much more CP and we can shoot non-blast guns @ -1 in melee, the turn after we get charged.

The way I see it, the kind of tanks that didn't like getting charged in 8th still don't like getting charged in 9th. The "add 3 heavy flamers" is a false economy because of the timing of when things happen.

Take a leman russ demolisher plus 3 h.flamers. Even with favourable rules, you'll get 13.5 hits, 9 wounds or 4.5 dead marines / 2 dead primaris models. All other units in your army that can shoot can't help out (unless they were also charged by the same unit) and a melee unit can't fight again until the assault phase.

This tells me you still want to avoid getting your priority vehicles tagged. And you want to field things that are effective in doing that, rather than investing points in something you want to avoid happening - those points can help that happen.

@pyroalchi
Yes it’s only a 2 pt upgrade and it’s also AP -1 so it gives it Atleast some punch.

Also with the Macharius what about the flamer and plasma variants?
@duke of stuff
I’m gonna look into Vendettas today.

@razerous
I think bullgryn and blobs of catachan guardsmen should do the job right?

@ Sentinels: The problem is that they only have one attack at WS 4+. Giving that one attack -1 AP is... hardly worth it, even for 2 points. It's highly unlikely they kill anything with that.

just to give an example: the chance to hit an kill a grot (T2, W1, 6+) with a Sentinel is: 1/2 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 35%. With a chainsaw that increases to a wooping 42%.
For let's say a Marine (where the AP would matter more) its 1/2 x 2/3 x 1/3 = 11% for one wound rising to 16% with the chainsaw. I would assume it's better to save those 2 points and buy a hunter killer missile instead. Then again: with Straken and a bit of luck... or if you just like chainsaws...

If it does not get dropped from the index the sentinel powerlifter might still work (3 Attacks and a Powerfist for T10, AP -2 D3)


@ Macharius: The Flamer variant you are referring to is most probable the Malcador Infernus. I think it looks good on paper but its still to expensive for what it brings. It costs almost as much as 3 Hellhounds and I think you will have more fun with those. Then again: I really like the model and it is definitly on my list of "things I would buy if I have to much money".
@ Macharius Omega (the Plasma Variant): it suffers a bit from being (in my opinion) worse than the Macharius Heavy tank and definitly worse than the Vulcan
Omega and Heavy tank have 2D6 shots, the Omega either 8/-3/d2 or 9/-3/d3 with the usual overcharge damage
the Heavy tank has 8/-2/dD6 (so average 3.5 damage). The additional damage usually outshines the additional AP of the Omega against anything with not exactly 2 wounds (that's my opinion at least)
The Vulcan has 15-30 6/-2/d2 shots, which is better than the Omega against anything with exactly 2 wounds and if he stands still also against any other target.



Edit: and not to forget: all Macharius have a hard time competing against their Baneblade Variants, especially as those are not that much more expensive (I'm not sure, but I think they might even be cheaper). The Vulcan can have more shots than the Stormlord, but the latter has the extended firing deck.

Andredre wrote:
@razerous
I think bullgryn and blobs of catachan guardsmen should do the job right?

Yup - but if your heavy-hitter tanks get tagged in melee, the damage is already done. Bullgryns may be able to dig your tanks out of a melee hole, eventually.

But I doubt they'd stop a unit tagging the tank in the first place. Screens?

Screens = more tanks, hellhounds and sentinels. Target saturation!

@pyroalchi
Damn those are some crappy statistics lol. I’m not a big sentinel fan, but I was checking their stats and they’re super cheap to run. So I thought they could Atleast be a good distraction.
And ahhh I see, from what I’ve seen besides the transport capability a lot of people prefer the Macharius vulcan over the storm lord.
I was also looking at the Artemia hellhound too. I just want a nice forgeworld tank to model lol. Like as a centerpiece but also not suck lol. (Whenever anything gets back in stock)
@razerous I’m definitely investing in a couple of leman ruses. (Punisher and Demolisher) I’m gonna play a small combat patrol match soon. I talk to some really dedicated guard players, and he said Bullgryn are way more durable point for point than a baneblade variant. So instead of getting one big tank, it’s a good idea to have a bunch of smaller ones it seems.

Also I was looking at the Doomhammer variant, but it seems like it’s not good. From what I’ve read.

@ Andrede:
regarding the sentinels: you are absolutely right that they are darn cheap and (in my opinion) useful. And of course they can also be used in melee, just don't think of them as tool to kill something but instead as one that is rather cheap to tag something while being a (relatively speaking) tough vehicle. An armored Sentinel with Multilaser costs roughly 3/4 of a Bullgryn with maul for +1T, +3 wounds, -1 save. And other than the Bullgryn he can for example "trap" a knight, since those cannot walk over a Sentinel.

@ Artemia Hellhound: As usual: if you like the model, go for it. On a purely theoretical point of view I would still prefer the normal one. 2D6 instead of 1D6 shots is more consistent and it does not run the risk of wasting damage. What I mean: it does not matter if you hit a 2 wound model 8 times with a d1 flamer (normal Hellhound) or 4 times with a d2 flamer (Artemia pattern). But it's much better to hit a lot of 1 wound models with the d1 flamer that has more shots.

@ Superheavies in general: as others have implied: they are unfortunatly relatively squishy since they lack an InvSv and there is enough anti tank lying around in the most codices to kill them pretty fast. On a purely theoretic point of view you are usually better of with their weight in Leman Russ. The main difference is that they are much better once they are in CC as they can still fire at what they want. And the Baneblades with their crushing tracks can even kill some stuff in CC from time to time.
Sidenote on the Vulnerability (but that is some really weird stuff where I don't know if one can really pull that off): IF you should out of personal preference or something want to build a list with more than one superheavy, maybe even 3, and interesting thing might be the Void Shield Generator + Psykers for "Psychic Barrier". The Generator gives your Superheavies a 5++ against shooting attacks as long as they are within range, the Psychic Barrier increases that to 4++ and their normal save to 2+. Give them the "always in cover" Tank Ace and one or two of them even get a 1+ as long as they don't move (Macharius Vulcan says hello). It fixes one major problem with the Guard superheavies (their survivability) but it is expensive (in real world money) as the Void shield Generator costs ~ 200 points on it's own, so it should at least buff two vehicles to buy its cost back.


@

I just want a nice forgeworld tank to model lol

My recommendation would be: look what you like best from the looks of it and go for it. They are usually not bad, it's just that there are often more efficient options in the GW range. But a bit less efficient doesn't mean you cannot use FW sensibly.
From a "usefulness" point of view I would again recommend the Carnodon, as the kit comes with a lot of weapons options and is easy to magnetize. And the model is very cheap in points so you don't invest that heavy in a model that might be a bit less efficient than it's weight in Leman Russ. Just as a reminder the options are:
Main weapon: Twin Multilaser (6 x 6/0/1), Twin Autocannon (4 x 7/-1/2), Twin Volkite (4 x 6/-1/2, mortal wounds on a 6 on the wound roll), Twin Lascannon (2 x 9/-3/D6)
Sponsons: two Multilasers/Autocannons/Volkites/Lascannons (as above), two heavy flamers (2D6 5/-1/-1 autohitting), two Heavy Bolters (6 x 5/-1/1)
So you can really modify it to adress almost any target. Quad Lascannon for Anti-Tank, Volkites or Autocannons for Anti-Marines (especially Primaris), Quad Multilaser for Anti Guardsmen/Grots or to be as cheap as possible), Flamers if you want to go up close.

Indirect fire artillery are going to be the only viable tanks in the new melta meta.

The meta is going to be infested with salamanders fast attack choices loaded with multi melta.

The average damage of a single multi melta in half range went from 4.5 to 11. A single land speeder has 2.

The meta will not be vehicle friendly once the marine codex drops.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Indirect fire artillery are going to be the only viable tanks in the new melta meta.

The meta is going to be infested with salamanders fast attack choices loaded with multi melta.

The average damage of a single multi melta in half range went from 4.5 to 11. A single land speeder has 2.

The meta will not be vehicle friendly once the marine codex drops.

how does your math work.. At all?

Assuming heavy 2, D6+2 damage. 77% accuracy (reroll 1's for 1 weapon, right?).. I get 4.2 damage over many shots.

I think he means:
8th: 1 shot with 2D6 take the highest: approximatly 4.5 damage if it hits, wounds and gets through the save
9th on the marine thingy: 2 shots with each 1D6+2 = 2 x 5.5 = 11
But as you said: those have to hit, wound and get through the save.

@pyroalchi ah ok I’ve got a good idea. Basically sentinels are cheap cannon fodder than can either distract or soften up the opponent.
And I see, all the AP going around makes super heavies so easy to kill. I’m definitely gonna stock up on Russes.
As for forgeworld the modularity of the carnodon makes it more useful than most models
Makes sense