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If I have a vehicle with multiple weapons and enemy infantry in engagement range, or even attacking it, can i fire anti infantry weapons at them first and if i wipe them pout then fire a bigger gun at a different target?

Say a doomdsay ark gets rushed on turn 2 by some infantry that are just trying to keep it from firing it's DDC at full power by forcing it to fall back in order to fire it at all. Next turn the dda fires it's Gauss array at them and wipes the unit out., Could it then fire it''s DDC at full power at a distant target without penalty or not?

No you cannot. You must declare all targets for your weapons before making any attacks, and if its not a legal target at that point then you cant target it.

 Stux wrote:
No you cannot. You must declare all targets for your weapons before making any attacks, and if its not a legal target at that point then you cant target it.

The Doomsday Ark can certainly declare a target for its DDC in the OP's situation, hoping that it clears away the enemy models within Engagement Range with its Gauss array. The Big Guns Never Tire rule certainly allows this: ... you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks..."

Tango has this correct. If you look at the rules for "Select Targets" (Core Rules page 216), nothing in there prevents you from choosing a target if you're in engagement range. You are, however, ordinarily prevented from actually making the ranged attack once you've chosen your target/s (page 217). Big Guns Never Tire then overrides that restriction.

My mistake! Tango is correct.

Thanks guys. I thought i might be reading it right, but then my pro necron bias might have been making me wish it was true.

I had an idea for a funny cartoon about this. An ork bigboss and a necron overlord are standing at a table and the ork is point to it bellowing "Har har! I got six o' me grots wallopin' on yer fancy doomsday ark, so yer next turn yer can't fire it's big gun at me goraknaut I's advancin' on yer boyz Ha, we orkzes is clevva!!"

Next turn the overlord declares targeting gorts with gauss array, targeting gorkanaut with DDC at full power. The ork bellows "Oi! Yer can't do dat!"

Overlord recites big guns never tire rule, uses MWBD on DDA then fires gauss array. After rolling to hit there are six little "Piffs! and tiny puffs of green smoke rising from his end of the table.

Then he declares DDC firing at gorkanaut, CP rerolls # of shots, rolls hits and damage,, followed by a "BOOM!" and a large green mushroom cloud rising from the ork's end of the table.

What's perhaps a little bit vague, when I read it, was that big guns never tire implies that you can target other units in engagement range of your other units, as long as you kill the ones in CC with yourself first.

IIRC the rule states that the vehicle/monster can declare targets which are within engagement range of other units, but cannot shoot them unless it is no longer within engagement range.



So they can attack enemy units within engagement range. They can attack enemy units in engagement range of other units. And they can target units not in engagement range of themselves.

So I can target the lone guardsman with my morkanaughts skorcha, and then target another unit of the enemies which is engaged with one of my units, thinking it was safe, with all my other guns - as long as the skorcha kills the guardsman, the rest is allowed... ...technically... ...I think...

Hah!! It took me a couple of read-throughs to see what you were getting at, hopefully you don't mind me rewording your point:

- if a Vehicle/Monster is in Engagement Range of any enemy units, then Big Guns Never Tire allows that Vehicle/Monster to target other enemy units that are within Engagement Range of completely different friendly units. It can then fire on that target, provided it uses other weapons to clear itself of being in Engagement Range first.

After another read-through, this isn't actually the case... Big Guns Never Tire does indeed give you permission to target those other units. However - you still don't have permission to actually perform a shooting attack on them, only target them.

The net result (and I believe, the intent) is that you can still target and shoot at units that are in Engagement Range of both your Vehicle/Monster and other friendly units, in that same combat. But you still can't fire into other combats.

There is one circumstance I can think of, where this wording could cause some unusual results. Say your Vehicle (a Dreadnought) is in Engagement Range of another Vehicle (a Battlewagon), and there's another combat going on nearby (a mob of Orks against a poor, single Scout). You target the Battlewagon with a meltagun, and target the Ork mob in the other combat with an assault cannon.
The meltagun causes the Battlewagon to Explode, and this takes out the Scout. Both your Dreadnought and the Ork mob are no longer in Engagement Range, so the assault cannon is now allowed to fire.
...that's so ridiculously wonkily rare that I can't imagine it's going to get FAQed, nor can I imagine anyone actively trying to take advantage of it.

 Super Ready wrote:
Hah!! It took me a couple of read-throughs to see what you were getting at, hopefully you don't mind me rewording your point:

- if a Vehicle/Monster is in Engagement Range of any enemy units, then Big Guns Never Tire allows that Vehicle/Monster to target other enemy units that are within Engagement Range of completely different friendly units. It can then fire on that target, provided it uses other weapons to clear itself of being in Engagement Range first.

After another read-through, this isn't actually the case... Big Guns Never Tire does indeed give you permission to target those other units. However - you still don't have permission to actually perform a shooting attack on them, only target them.

The net result (and I believe, the intent) is that you can still target and shoot at units that are in Engagement Range of both your Vehicle/Monster and other friendly units, in that same combat. But you still can't fire into other combats.

Is it not permitted by the rule stating "In such circumstances, Vehicle and Monster models can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within engagement range of the same enemy unit"?

Or is that little "The same enemy unit" bit their get-out clause... I guess that depends if they mean "the same enemy unit that you are targeting" or "the same enemy unit as you are in engagement range of"...

I'd never really do this, but it almost seems like you can...

I see nothing giving permission to fire at enemy units in Engagement Range of friendly units that the firing unit is itself not in Engagement Range of. The rule states "but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of."

That's my read anyway!

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I see nothing giving permission to fire at enemy units in Engagement Range of friendly units that the firing unit is itself not in Engagement Range of. The rule states "but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of."

That's my read anyway!

Then read on to "Note that if a Vehicle or Monster unit has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit"

To summarize the point, in a "permissive ruleset" way:

If a Vehicle or Monster unit is within engagement range, it has permission:

1: To make ranged attacks
2: To make such attacks against enemy units that it is within engagement range of
3: To target enemy units even if other friendly units are within engagement range of the same unit
4: To target units which are not within engagement range of the firing models unit (but can only resolve the attacks if you are out of engagement range by the time you fire)

So you have permission to target units which are within engagement range of friendly units, but can only target ones you are in engagement range of, unless you are no longer within engagement range.

so you kill the lone gaurdsman first, then shoot across the table at the unit in CC with another of your units, which you had permission to target thanks to points 2 and 4.

AFAIK, the rules don't allow you to target units in engagement range of your units, so there is nothing in the shooting rules to stop you attacking them once you've made it past the "targeting" stage.

I think you are adding a loop that is not there. I can see nothing overides "can make attack with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of. In such circumstances...can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit." That second condition (the same enemy unit) is not changed by destroying the enemy unit that the firing model was in Engagement Range. You haven't been given permission to fire into other combats. It does not change the Locked in Combat rule on 217 except in the way that Big Guns Never Tire specifically addresses.

That is just my read, of course.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I think you are adding a loop that is not there. I can see nothing overides "can make attack with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of. In such circumstances...can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit." That second condition (the same enemy unit) is not changed by destroying the enemy unit that the firing model was in Engagement Range. You haven't been given permission to fire into other combats. It does not change the Locked in Combat rule on 217 except in the way that Big Guns Never Tire specifically addresses.

That is just my read, of course.

The only permission I see for shooting at enemy units in engagement range of friendly units are those that are also in engagement range of the vehicle itself. You don't have permission to fire at enemy units locked in some other combat. You do have permission to fire at enemy units that aren't locked in another combat though, if you clear out all the units engaged with the vehicle doing the firing first (or if they're already in engagement range of the vehicle).

 doctortom wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I think you are adding a loop that is not there. I can see nothing overides "can make attack with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of. In such circumstances...can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit." That second condition (the same enemy unit) is not changed by destroying the enemy unit that the firing model was in Engagement Range. You haven't been given permission to fire into other combats. It does not change the Locked in Combat rule on 217 except in the way that Big Guns Never Tire specifically addresses.

That is just my read, of course.

The only permission I see for shooting at enemy units in engagement range of friendly units are those that are also in engagement range of the vehicle itself. You don't have permission to fire at enemy units locked in some other combat. You do have permission to fire at enemy units that aren't locked in another combat though, if you clear out all the units engaged with the vehicle doing the firing first (or if they're already in engagement range of the vehicle).

That is my read as well.

And mine too. some bloke, what you're missing is that targeting and actually firing are two separate steps. Just because you can target something, doesn't automatically give you permission to shoot at it too.

i cannot beging to fathom why you would target a unit you can't fire at and why a rule would allow you to do so. It pushes the limits of my perplexity.

It's a way for vehicles and monsters to combat being bogged down by stupidly small units by being forced to fire everything at whatever you're in combat with.
I shouldn't be able to charge, say, a Land Raider Crusader with 5 grots and expect to get the tank's full attention.

It *IS* a risk, however, because if you don't clear out that Engagement Range unit entirely, your other targeted shots are wasted as a result.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like the situation i was seeing, thanks, mirror universe super saiyen.

If you're used to always putting melee models in base-to-base contact due to previous editions, like me, it's also worth noting that you should keep engaged characters slightly further away from vehicles and monsters than other units that may be in combat, or else they can be shot at as being the closest unit.

By doing this, doesn't it make it impossible for the vehicle/monster to shoot at anything outside of engagement range because it can't possibly destroy all units it is engaged with?

That's a good point - Look Out Sir prevents you from targeting the Character, and since you have to do all targeting simultaneously, you can't wipe the screen unit out first beforehand.
I suspect this may well become a viable new tactic instead of having just the cheap unit to hold the vehicle up - but given most Characters are HQ units, it's an expensive way to do it detachment-wise.

I agree that it does allow you to targe the unit you're in combat with, and I know it's intended that the rule allows you to target them even if someone else is in combat with them. However, because they separate the statements, it seems (to me at least) to allow what I'm saying:

They don't say "you may target the unit you are in combat with even if it has other units in combat with it", it says "you can shoot into your combat. You can target units in combat with other units. You can target units you're not in combat with. you can't shoot them if you're still in combat."

The separation of the statements means you've been given permission to target anything in range & LOS, whether it's engaged or not. And if you kill all units in combat range of you, you can shoot at them.

I don't have the rulebook to hand, but it all pivots on whether there are rules disallowing shooting at units within engagement range, or targeting them. If you can't shoot them even if you target them, then I'm definitely wrong. If you are only disallowed from targeting them (which the Big Guns Never Tire rule negates) then I could be right.

Breaking it down a bit - for all units, Engagement Range prevents you from shooting at the relevant units. Big Guns Never Tire specifically calls out that rule and overrides it.

Look Out Sir prevents you from targeting the relevant character - while Big Guns Never Tire does allow targeting units with other friendly models in Engagement Range, it does nothing to override the additional restrictions that Look Out Sir poses (that is, it doesn't mention characters or Wounds at all), so it does nothing to override it.

 some bloke wrote:
I agree that it does allow you to targe the unit you're in combat with, and I know it's intended that the rule allows you to target them even if someone else is in combat with them. However, because they separate the statements, it seems (to me at least) to allow what I'm saying:

They don't say "you may target the unit you are in combat with even if it has other units in combat with it", it says "you can shoot into your combat. You can target units in combat with other units. You can target units you're not in combat with. you can't shoot them if you're still in combat."

The separation of the statements means you've been given permission to target anything in range & LOS, whether it's engaged or not. And if you kill all units in combat range of you, you can shoot at them.

I don't have the rulebook to hand, but it all pivots on whether there are rules disallowing shooting at units within engagement range, or targeting them. If you can't shoot them even if you target them, then I'm definitely wrong. If you are only disallowed from targeting them (which the Big Guns Never Tire rule negates) then I could be right.

I think you need to read the rule from the rulebook and not your rephrasing of the rule. The rule allows a unit to shoot enemy units with which it is within Engagement Range - this is a specific permission. It allows this even if friendly units are also in Engagement Range of the same unit. The " of the same unit" bit is very important. It is not a blanket permission for shooting into all units in Engagement Range.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:


I think you need to read the rule from the rulebook and not your rephrasing of the rule. The rule allows a unit to shoot enemy units with which it is within Engagement Range - this is a specific permission. It allows this even if friendly units are also in Engagement Range of the same unit. The " of the same unit" bit is very important. It is not a blanket permission for shooting into all units in Engagement Range.

The question then is: Does it mean the same unit you are in combat with, or the same unit you are targeting?

The rule allows you to target units you're in combat with, units in combat with other units, and units your not in combat with. EI, any unit you can see and are in range of.

 some bloke wrote:
The rule allows you to target units you're in combat with, units in combat with other units, and units your not in combat with. EI, any unit you can see and are in range of.

It's still irrelevant, because you're either prevented from targeting the unit because of Look Out Sir (which is way more specific than Big Guns Never Tire), or from shooting at the unit you targeted in another combat because Big Guns Never Tire only allows you to target that unit, and not shoot at it once you've left Engagement Range of your own combat.

To sum up, no, you can't use Big Guns Never Tire to target a character unless it wasn't falling under Look Out Sir anyway.

 Super Ready wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
The rule allows you to target units you're in combat with, units in combat with other units, and units your not in combat with. EI, any unit you can see and are in range of.

It's still irrelevant, because you're either prevented from targeting the unit because of Look Out Sir (which is way more specific than Big Guns Never Tire), or from shooting at the unit you targeted in another combat because Big Guns Never Tire only allows you to target that unit, and not shoot at it once you've left Engagement Range of your own combat.

To sum up, no, you can't use Big Guns Never Tire to target a character unless it wasn't falling under Look Out Sir anyway.

I'm not referring to characters, I think that's gotten muddled up in here somehow!

Do the shooting rules prevent you from shooting a unit within engagement range of a friendly model, or from targeting a unit within engagement range of a friendly model? If it's only targeting, this is bypassed by big guns never tire; if it's shooting, then it isn't (yes you can target them but no you can't shoot them).

 some bloke wrote:
I agree that it does allow you to targe the unit you're in combat with, and I know it's intended that the rule allows you to target them even if someone else is in combat with them. However, because they separate the statements, it seems (to me at least) to allow what I'm saying:

They don't say "you may target the unit you are in combat with even if it has other units in combat with it", it says "you can shoot into your combat. You can target units in combat with other units. You can target units you're not in combat with. you can't shoot them if you're still in combat."

The separation of the statements means you've been given permission to target anything in range & LOS, whether it's engaged or not. And if you kill all units in combat range of you, you can shoot at them.

I don't have the rulebook to hand, but it all pivots on whether there are rules disallowing shooting at units within engagement range, or targeting them. If you can't shoot them even if you target them, then I'm definitely wrong. If you are only disallowed from targeting them (which the Big Guns Never Tire rule negates) then I could be right.

You are missing the 'in such circumstances' clause. That is saying when you are in the circumstance of shooting at an enemy unit within engagement range, you may do so even if another friendly unit is also in engagement range.

Crispy78 wrote:

You are missing the 'in such circumstances' clause. That is saying when you are in the circumstance of shooting at an enemy unit within engagement range, you may do so even if another friendly unit is also in engagement range.

That is an exceedingly good point. I missed that!