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Hello hello, first time posting over here in YMDC, I've got an interesting current interaction that I want to explore, and want your feedback and thoughts.

So the 9th edition rules clearly state that unless stated otherwise, they can't do anything, be affected by abilities or stratagems. Cue the question of whether or not Tankbustas get to utilize their "Tankhunters" ability while embarked in an open-topped transport. I'm sure if you are reading this, you know the rule, but for the sake of someone who might not, it essentially is re-roll hits when making attacks against vehicles.

So, I've seen a good bit of back and forth, and it seems the general consensus is that in fact, they cannot. Now if we agree that models cannot be affected by abilities such as this, then, staying on the Tankbustas datasheet, we take a look at Bomb Squigs.

Under the abilities section for the Squig Bomb weapon, we see that it cannot target units that fly, and after resolving the attack, the model is slain. Additionally, under the abilities section of the unit sheet, we see that a loss of a squig bomb is ignored for the purposes of morale.

Here's the catch: If we stick to a hard RAW approach, this would seem to imply that while embarked in an open-topped transport, an unit of Tankbustas with Bomb Squigs could use said bomb squigs to target units that can FLY, and then are not slain after resolving the attack. Effectively, this means that you could have a squad of Tankbustas with immortal bomb squigs that can shoot whatever they like.

Now me personally, I don't think this is correct at all, and certainly not RAI, which would mean that in fact, to be a logically consistent person, would mean that you must either allow Tankbustas to re-roll hits against vehicles while embarked in an open-topped transport OR for Bomb Squigs to be immortal and able to target models with FLY, but both cannot be true at the same time.

A bit of Schrödingers bomb squig if you will? I can't wait to see what you all think!

I had to look up bomb squig rules for this one. For anyone unfamiliar, the bomb squig is a model, which carries a squig bomb weapon profile. That weapon profile says that it cannot target units that fly, and to remove the bearer after making the attack.

I'd argue that both effects of the squig bomb still apply, because they come from the weapon profile that the model is using to make the attack in the first place, as explicitly given permission by the Open-Topped rule.
This is just like operating any other weapon rules that might come from a profile, for instance additional hits on an unmodified 6, overcharged plasma weapons killing the bearer on a 1, and so on. Whether that effect is positive or negative should have no bearing.

Yes RAW tankbustas don't get their re-rolls (or DakkaDakkaDakka) while inside but bomb squigs don't die either and they actually can target flying units.

Since abilities don't work bomb squigs are regular models with their assault 1 weapon.

That's why the way open topped currently works is definitely to be fixed by allowing abilities included in the same unit's datasheet to work while embarked. And possibly also the general abilities that the faction and klan give them.

It's abilities given by other units that shouldn't work. Like in 8th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:


I'd argue that both effects of the squig bomb still apply, because they come from the weapon profile that the model is using to make the attack in the first place, as explicitly given permission by the Open-Topped rule.

The description of that effect (cannot target FLY and slain after firing) is listed under Abilties. The rule doesn't allow any "Abilities". S, AP, Damage, Range and type of weapon aren't listed under Abilities.

 Super Ready wrote:
I had to look up bomb squig rules for this one. For anyone unfamiliar, the bomb squig is a model, which carries a squig bomb weapon profile. That weapon profile says that it cannot target units that fly, and to remove the bearer after making the attack.

I'd argue that both effects of the squig bomb still apply, because they come from the weapon profile that the model is using to make the attack in the first place, as explicitly given permission by the Open-Topped rule.
This is just like operating any other weapon rules that might come from a profile, for instance additional hits on an unmodified 6, overcharged plasma weapons killing the bearer on a 1, and so on. Whether that effect is positive or negative should have no bearing.

Thanks for the reply, and I can understand your viewpoint. To quote the 9th rule:

"Unless specifically stated, abilities have no effect on units while they are embarked..."

The rule does not explicitly state nor clarify if the abilities from datasheets, weapon statlines, or other sources. The squig bomb rule in question is clearly listed under "Abilities" for the weapon, hence my reason for making this post.

For clarity, I agree that the squig bomb still shouldn't be able to target units that fly, and should slay the model afterwards.

RAW however, the Bomb Squig model cannot be affected by "Abilities", and the rule in question is clearly an "Abilities".

Very good point... so it is correct per RAW, after all. I'm trying to think whether there's any possibility of loading plasma weapons into such a vehicle? If so, that's horribly broken for as long as it takes to get FAQed or Codex-updated out of existence.

What is nice by this example is that they can not have it both ways. Until they FAQ jedi mindtrick it with a hadnwave.

I've been saying for as long as anyone will listen that open-topped is a massive mess of a rule and that they need to just sit down and fix it. But they obviously didn't care enough to do it for 9th edition, a logical time to fix it, so I can't see it getting fixed any time soon either.

RAW, shooting from open topped is horribly broken, and this has been the case from the beginning of 8th, and its unchanged so far. You could safely overcharge plasma, and not blow up on a 1, because you cant be affected by anything. A big mek with custom mega blasta would not suffer a MW when he rolls a 1. MW reflected back to the shooting unit would not work, because an embarked unit cant be affected by anything.

"Unless specifically stated, abilities have no effect on UNITS while they are embarked..."

it says they don't affect units it doesn't say they don't affect gun profile abilities. You don't magically lose the half inch melta range.

 p5freak wrote:
RAW, shooting from open topped is horribly broken, and this has been the case from the beginning of 8th, and its unchanged so far. You could safely overcharge plasma, and not blow up on a 1, because you cant be affected by anything. A big mek with custom mega blasta would not suffer a MW when he rolls a 1. MW reflected back to the shooting unit would not work, because an embarked unit cant be affected by anything.

No it's not broken, not for everyone at least. Orks for example lose so much by shooting while inside a vehicle, to the point that shooty units that were common in 8th like tankbustas or flash gitz don't see the table anymore.

Tankbustas lose the full re-rolls against vehicles, exploding 6s, and the single to-wound re-roll if they're Deathskullz while flash gitz lose exploding 6s, a possible second turn of shooting on a 6 and the +1BS on their leader. This is way worse than immortal bomb squigs or safe BS5+ plasma equivalent.

For orks the new open topped rule basically killed all the shooty units that were good by firing while embarked, it's the opposite of a broken rule: it's actually a huge nerf.

Actually, this is awesome.

At the beginning of the game you can just explain the problem to your opponent and he can pick between tankbustas re-rolling hits, dakka³ and cultures or getting hit by six bomb squigs each turn that can attack fliers.

It's not hard to guess which one they'll pick.

Des702 wrote:
"Unless specifically stated, abilities have no effect on UNITS while they are embarked..."

it says they don't affect units it doesn't say they don't affect gun profile abilities. You don't magically lose the half inch melta range.

Gun profile abilities are abilities. And when that ability says the model is slain when you roll a 1, that ability would affect the unit, because models are in units, and thats not possible according to the transports rule.

This is one time TMIR legitimately kicks in because GW didn't bother to include rules for what happens to embarked models/units in this instance.

RAW, they said the unit is not affected.

RAW is pretty clear how it works, there's no possible doubt about it. It's just stupid.

Yes that is odd. Really it should be that units embarked may use (or be affected by) their own abilities, but cannot be affected by any ability from another unit/stratagem/etc.

Thanks for all the great replies so far. I definitely see it as a huge oversight from the rules writing perspective, but really isn't arguable when considering that it is all under "Abilities".

My thought now is what Jidmah said, where you talk about it before the game and ask your opponent which interpretation they prefer, the Tankbustas get all their re-rolls, DDD, and clan kulturs, or you get immortal bomb squigs that an attack units with FLY. Realistically, I'd be happy with either.

Any other things like that we can think about? Off the top of my head, Drukhari with all their open topped vehicles and things like Shredders not being able to re-roll wounds against infantry, nor do they get BLAST on the weapons.

As previously mentioned, getting some form of plasma unit in an open topped transport and having safe overcharging.

What else is totally borked by this?

"Models inside transports cannot be seen, measured to or affected by stratagems unless explicitly stated otherwise."
Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
What else is totally borked by this?

Few armies actually have open topped transports and decent shooting units to put in them at the same time.

As for orks:
- Lootas and burnas roll a d3 for every model, not just once per army
- Barukk can overcharge without worrying about taking damage
- KMB and kusto-mega slugga are safe weapons now
- Burnas and skorchas need to roll to hit
- flash git kaptin doesn't get +1 to hit
- Boarding action stratagem has no penalty when hitting with PKs or killsaws and doesn't kill wielders of tankhammers

 Jidmah wrote:
"Models inside transports cannot be seen, measured to or affected by stratagems unless explicitly stated otherwise."
Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
What else is totally borked by this?

Few armies actually have open topped transports and decent shooting units to put in them at the same time.

As for orks:
- Lootas and burnas roll a d3 for every model, not just once per army
- Barukk can overcharge without worrying about taking damage
- KMB and kusto-mega slugga are safe weapons now
- Burnas and skorchas need to roll to hit
- flash git kaptin doesn't get +1 to hit
- Boarding action stratagem has no penalty when hitting with PKs or killsaws and doesn't kill wielders of tankhammers

Oh man, I hadn't even thought about Lootas and Burnas getting to go around their normal number of shots rule. That's actually kind of beneficial in terms of averages, but worse in terms of getting 3 on their number of shots. Burnas having to roll for their hits though is kind of hilarious.

The Boarding action strategem to get PKs and Killsaws hitting on base WS is actually a huge consideration. I could see running a battlewagon with 10 meganobz in it to try to abuse the strat, then they get out and are still a force to be reckoned with!

There's also one-use items to consider - like the buzza squig grenade. No idea how to use that from a vehicle - do you get unlimited, does it actually fire at all?

In my view, leaving RAW aside, the most logical interpretation is that:
1) Subfaction rules don't work (unless specifically stated)
2) Datasheet abilities work
3) Weapon rules work
4) Strats and auras don't work

Fully confident about 3) and 4), not o much about 1) and 2)

eparedes0785 wrote:
In my view, leaving RAW aside, the most logical interpretation is that:
1) Subfaction rules don't work (unless specifically stated)
2) Datasheet abilities work
3) Weapon rules work
4) Strats and auras don't work

Fully confident about 3) and 4), not o much about 1) and 2)

I 100% agree that numbers 3&4 are exactly on the level, no question. I *think* that number 2 is correct as well.

Why would datasheet and weapon abilities work but not subfaction traits? I can't see why it wouldn't be either all work or none work.

eparedes0785 wrote:
In my view, leaving RAW aside, the most logical interpretation is that:
1) Subfaction rules don't work (unless specifically stated)
2) Datasheet abilities work
3) Weapon rules work
4) Strats and auras don't work

Fully confident about 3) and 4), not o much about 1) and 2)

There is no reason to believe that some abilities work while others don't. It's either all or none.

Exactly, how it should work or is supposed to work is not how it really works. It's clearly a mistake from GW that will be fixed sooner or later.

At the moment players can either go RAW and allow all the nonsense GW wrote or go with house rules and allow only the combinations that they feel appropriate. I've decided to simply avoid shooting units in open topped transports for my lists, I'm only taking trukks for boyz (DDD for a unit of trukk boyz averages 0-1 S4 AP- additional hits, totally irrelevant) and non open topped wagons.

Oh and I've already noticed the cherry on top: RAW poisoned weapons firing from Raiders and Venoms can't be resolved at all!!! They're S* and their effect is described into the "abilties" section.

 Blackie wrote:
Exactly, how it should work or is supposed to work is not how it really works. It's clearly a mistake from GW that will be fixed sooner or later.

At the moment players can either go RAW and allow all the nonsense GW wrote or go with house rules and allow only the combinations that they feel appropriate. I've decided to simply avoid shooting units in open topped transports for my lists, I'm only taking trukks for boyz (DDD for a unit of trukk boyz averages 0-1 S4 AP- additional hits, totally irrelevant) and non open topped wagons.

Oh and I've already noticed the cherry on top: RAW poisoned weapons firing from Raiders and Venoms can't be resolved at all!!! They're S* and their effect is described into the "abilties" section.

Agreed. I generally omit shooting units in transports in my ork lists anyway, but I am toying around with a list featuring Tankbustas in a Battlewagon, and I figured I ought to try to clear things up at least in my head before my first game with it. Oddly enough, I'll be playing a Drukhari player, and I think if he doesn't want me to use re-roll hits on vehicles or have immortal tankbustas, I'll be bringing up your poisoned weapons point.

The reason I personally believe that subfaction abilities shouldn't work whilst embarked is that some subfaction rules specifically only work whilst embarked ie: soaring spite, flayed skull. In addition, you have the protection and speed of the vehicle when aboard, so I don't think you should have the best of both worlds. Please do note that this is just my personal view.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason I personally believe that subfaction abilities shouldn't work whilst embarked is that some subfaction rules specifically only work whilst embarked ie: soaring spite, flayed skull. In addition, you have the protection and speed of the vehicle when aboard, so I don't think you should have the best of both worlds. Please do note that this is just my personal view.

eparedes0785 wrote:
The reason I personally believe that subfaction abilities shouldn't work whilst embarked is that some subfaction rules specifically only work whilst embarked ie: soaring spite, flayed skull. In addition, you have the protection and speed of the vehicle when aboard, so I don't think you should have the best of both worlds. Please do note that this is just my personal view.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The reason I personally believe that subfaction abilities shouldn't work whilst embarked is that some subfaction rules specifically only work whilst embarked ie: soaring spite, flayed skull. In addition, you have the protection and speed of the vehicle when aboard, so I don't think you should have the best of both worlds. Please do note that this is just my personal view.

You have the protection and speed of the vehicle, because you paid for the vehicle using your points.

If you play it as abilities work inside, why on earth would you exclude subfaction traits?

Because some subfaction rules only work whilst embarked. It's just my opinion, it needn't be like that.

eparedes0785 wrote:
Because some subfaction rules only work whilst embarked. It's just my opinion, it needn't be like that.

Seems rather arbitrary to limit something that has no limits on it because other things have limits on them.