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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





New to Big 40K. (Well, I started last year w Kill Team. Was going to join Big 40K; was saving up for the eventual purchases last May that would have completed a 500-point army when booom! the pandemic.) I just noticed that our best vehicles have BS: 4+.

Questions:

1. How do we improve our accuracy or do we just rely on flamers?

2. How viable are the more conventional tanks for our faction? (Predators, land raiders, etc.)

3. Do you guys hellbrutes?
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




1) Largely don't. Just accept the 4+ (or take max units of Blighthaulers and hope they don't get blown up)

2) They're far less durable, for one thing. The daemon engines have 5+ and 5++

3) I'd like to, but they feel oddly fragile in this codex. I love non-degrading profiles, and the base speed on Helbrutes, but points always seem to want to go elsewhere.

The upcoming changes to multimeltas, flamers and etc may change some considerations, especially on blighthaulers and helbrutes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/30 15:23:04


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Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Helbrutes are my go to choice for heavy lifting in CC. Twinlas/missile helbrutes didn't really work for me, but helbrute with scourge does great work, especially when supported with a tallyman. And if it's not the only target, so you either bring at least two helbrutes or a lot of other things to draw fire.
I don't have a predator because I'm a fluff player and until 8th edition DG wasn't really about predators (or other tanks aside from vindicators which has been replaced by a PBC now).But from what I hear its damage turns out to be pretty close to a PBC. However, the PBC is an extremely tough beast, so... there aren't many arguments left for a predator.

Not that all of this is based on 8th edition rules and points costs.
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Helbrutes are my go to choice for heavy lifting in CC. Twinlas/missile helbrutes didn't really work for me, but helbrute with scourge does great work, especially when supported with a tallyman. And if it's not the only target, so you either bring at least two helbrutes or a lot of other things to draw fire.


I've thought about this myself because I love Hellbrutes, but they're so fragile I worry about needing to take 3 of 'em just to guarantee one of them gets to combat. lol Do you take more than one? What else are you doing to support it so that it gets there without getting shot down? Would love any advice you might have!

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




Tycho wrote:
Helbrutes are my go to choice for heavy lifting in CC. Twinlas/missile helbrutes didn't really work for me, but helbrute with scourge does great work, especially when supported with a tallyman. And if it's not the only target, so you either bring at least two helbrutes or a lot of other things to draw fire.


I've thought about this myself because I love Hellbrutes, but they're so fragile I worry about needing to take 3 of 'em just to guarantee one of them gets to combat. lol Do you take more than one? What else are you doing to support it so that it gets there without getting shot down? Would love any advice you might have!


Target saturation is key. A Daemon Prince, Bloat Drones, Mortarion, Contemptors, Spawn, spitter PBC, allied Obliterators or other heavy shooting are all more interesting than Helbrutes to shoot at. And if your opponent decides to still shoot at your Helbrutes? Well, then a very cheap option dies to buy time for your aforementioned other hitters. I think concerning hitting power and point costs only a mower Drone comes close to a Helbrute, but the mower only Hits on 4+ and degrades. If that's still not enough throw FNP on a Helbrute per strat
   
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Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






PPPointyEars wrote:New to Big 40K. (Well, I started last year w Kill Team. Was going to join Big 40K; was saving up for the eventual purchases last May that would have completed a 500-point army when booom! the pandemic.) I just noticed that our best vehicles have BS: 4+.

Questions:

1. How do we improve our accuracy or do we just rely on flamers?

I echo the "you don't" sentiment, but you'll usually put a character with a re-roll aura and arch-contaminator near your best shooters. The value of a shooting unit is not decided by it's BS, but by number of hits you get per points spent. There are ork shooting units with BS5+ that can throw down a scary amount of shooting.

2. How viable are the more conventional tanks for our faction? (Predators, land raiders, etc.)

3. Do you guys hellbrutes?

Same answer to both, really. In an army where everything is high toughness, 5++ and has disgustingly resilient, units without those feats stick out like a sore thumb. I had many games where my opponent was simply asking whether he could shoot anything that doesn't have DR and 5++, and you would have to point to your predators and helbrutes. They rarely survive turn one in my games.

That said, there is no the ability to give any unit DR for CP and a character with a 5++ aura, so in theory you can make that problem disappear. On top of that, predators still have the killshot stratagem you can only use with three of them, so there's that.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Target saturation is key. A Daemon Prince, Bloat Drones, Mortarion, Contemptors, Spawn, spitter PBC, allied Obliterators or other heavy shooting are all more interesting than Helbrutes to shoot at. And if your opponent decides to still shoot at your Helbrutes? Well, then a very cheap option dies to buy time for your aforementioned other hitters. I think concerning hitting power and point costs only a mower Drone comes close to a Helbrute, but the mower only Hits on 4+ and degrades. If that's still not enough throw FNP on a Helbrute per strat

In my experience, the only thing that manages to draw fire from a helbrute is Mortarion himself - because when he hits enemy lines, they are fethed. Anything else is much harder to kill than helbrutes and usually has less damage output. It's hard to justify not shooting them when everything else has less or equal damage.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:
1) Largely don't. Just accept the 4+ (or take max units of Blighthaulers and hope they don't get blown up)

2) They're far less durable, for one thing. The daemon engines have 5+ and 5++

3) I'd like to, but they feel oddly fragile in this codex. I love non-degrading profiles, and the base speed on Helbrutes, but points always seem to want to go elsewhere.

The upcoming changes to multimeltas, flamers and etc may change some considerations, especially on blighthaulers and helbrutes.



Hmm I guess I'll have to wait until we get a new Codex or something.


Sgt. Cortez wrote:

I don't have a predator because I'm a fluff player and until 8th edition DG wasn't really about predators (or other tanks aside from vindicators which has been replaced by a PBC now).But from what I hear its damage turns out to be pretty close to a PBC.


I actually want to bring Predators because of fluff haha! I've decided to paint my Death Guard white so I read up on Pallid Hand lore. I discovered they love tanks! I figured I want to break the mold and get non-DG tanks just to stand out.



Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Target saturation is key. A Daemon Prince, Bloat Drones, Mortarion, Contemptors, Spawn, spitter PBC, allied Obliterators or other heavy shooting are all more interesting than Helbrutes to shoot at. And if your opponent decides to still shoot at your Helbrutes? Well, then a very cheap option dies to buy time for your aforementioned other hitters. I think concerning hitting power and point costs only a mower Drone comes close to a Helbrute, but the mower only Hits on 4+ and degrades. If that's still not enough throw FNP on a Helbrute per strat


Ah so maybe Helbrutes are doable at higher point games but not in smaller ones?



 Jidmah wrote:
PPPointyEars wrote:New to Big 40K. (Well, I started last year w Kill Team. Was going to join Big 40K; was saving up for the eventual purchases last May that would have completed a 500-point army when booom! the pandemic.) I just noticed that our best vehicles have BS: 4+.

Questions:

1. How do we improve our accuracy or do we just rely on flamers?

I echo the "you don't" sentiment, but you'll usually put a character with a re-roll aura and arch-contaminator near your best shooters. The value of a shooting unit is not decided by it's BS, but by number of hits you get per points spent. There are ork shooting units with BS5+ that can throw down a scary amount of shooting.

2. How viable are the more conventional tanks for our faction? (Predators, land raiders, etc.)

3. Do you guys hellbrutes?

Same answer to both, really. In an army where everything is high toughness, 5++ and has disgustingly resilient, units without those feats stick out like a sore thumb. I had many games where my opponent was simply asking whether he could shoot anything that doesn't have DR and 5++, and you would have to point to your predators and helbrutes. They rarely survive turn one in my games.

That said, there is no the ability to give any unit DR for CP and a character with a 5++ aura, so in theory you can make that problem disappear. On top of that, predators still have the killshot stratagem you can only use with three of them, so there's that.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:Target saturation is key. A Daemon Prince, Bloat Drones, Mortarion, Contemptors, Spawn, spitter PBC, allied Obliterators or other heavy shooting are all more interesting than Helbrutes to shoot at. And if your opponent decides to still shoot at your Helbrutes? Well, then a very cheap option dies to buy time for your aforementioned other hitters. I think concerning hitting power and point costs only a mower Drone comes close to a Helbrute, but the mower only Hits on 4+ and degrades. If that's still not enough throw FNP on a Helbrute per strat

In my experience, the only thing that manages to draw fire from a helbrute is Mortarion himself - because when he hits enemy lines, they are fethed. Anything else is much harder to kill than helbrutes and usually has less damage output. It's hard to justify not shooting them when everything else has less or equal damage.



Ooooh thanks Jidmah! That "number of hits you get per points spent" is good advice!

Is the killshot stratagem worth it? Or it's just to expensive a tactic as it needs three tanks (and very fragile ones at that).

"In my experience, the only thing that manages to draw fire from a helbrute is Mortarion himself - because when he hits enemy lines, they are fethed. Anything else is much harder to kill than helbrutes and usually has less damage output. It's hard to justify not shooting them when everything else has less or equal damage. "

Oh man that's sad. So no Helbrutes for now. Thanks guys!





   
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 PPPointyEars wrote:
Is the killshot stratagem worth it? Or it's just to expensive a tactic as it needs three tanks (and very fragile ones at that).


Disclaimer: I don't own three and am unlike to ever do unless I find some more ridiculously cheap ones second hand. So I have never tried this myself.

From other players, I have read that the killshot stratagem is considered very powerful - +1 wound and +1 damage is incredibly powerful. The drawback was that it can easily be countered by taking out a single tank, and you would be left with two rather mediocre predators.

However, in theory you can give all three DR for 3 CP and place a noxious blightbringer with the daemon's toll in the middle, making them just as durable as MBH or drones. While people can still interrupt your killshot stratagem, it will take them a non-trivial amount of firepower to do so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/02 16:13:20


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
 PPPointyEars wrote:
Is the killshot stratagem worth it? Or it's just to expensive a tactic as it needs three tanks (and very fragile ones at that).


Disclaimer: I don't own three and am unlike to ever do unless I find some more ridiculously cheap ones second hand. So I have never tried this myself.

From other players, I have read that the killshot stratagem is considered very powerful - +1 wound and +1 damage is incredibly powerful. The drawback was that it can easily be countered by taking out a single tank, and you would be left with two rather mediocre predators.

However, in theory you can give all three DR for 3 CP and place a noxious blightbringer with the daemon's toll in the middle, making them just as durable as MBH or drones. While people can still interrupt your killshot stratagem, it will take them a non-trivial amount of firepower to do so.


True. This is solid. Thanks!
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Well, as for killshot, it's amazing. We now have the ability to give the tanks a 5++ with a relic and a 5+++ with a strat so you can make a killer deamon tank setup that will actually scare people when they know about it.... which means they will definitely get targeted lol. But if you can line stuff up its a deviating setup.

However, I prefer plauge burst crawlers with the upgraded cannons and a chr (best would be a lord) with arch contaminator next to them. This gives you hitting on 4's rerolling 1's but wounding on whatever with full rerolls. To me this puts you at the same position as hitting with full rerolls but wounding rerolling 1's.

Also you can use the arch contaminator and relic pistol trick to get full rerolls to wound with all guns against a single target which also does really well.

Basically we cant do much about the hit rolls but we can maximize the wound rolls so thats typically the best option.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Azuza001 wrote:
Well, as for killshot, it's amazing. We now have the ability to give the tanks a 5++ with a relic and a 5+++ with a strat so you can make a killer deamon tank setup that will actually scare people when they know about it.... which means they will definitely get targeted lol. But if you can line stuff up its a deviating setup.

However, I prefer plauge burst crawlers with the upgraded cannons and a chr (best would be a lord) with arch contaminator next to them. This gives you hitting on 4's rerolling 1's but wounding on whatever with full rerolls. To me this puts you at the same position as hitting with full rerolls but wounding rerolling 1's.

Also you can use the arch contaminator and relic pistol trick to get full rerolls to wound with all guns against a single target which also does really well.

Basically we cant do much about the hit rolls but we can maximize the wound rolls so thats typically the best option.


So basically, the predators are still underwhelming as there are better Death Guard options still?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Lol I suppose you could see it that way. I prefer they require more finesse to use with killshot successfully. However with obsucring being a thing now and move and shoot with no penitlties I may have to try them again. Kill shot is fantastic..... especially with the heavy bolters and autocannon setup.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





I play a very daemon-engine heavy list and in honesty the 4+ doesn't mean as much as it did in 8th edition. if anything, it got better. -1 to hit after moving with heavy weapons was removed for them (except MBH who were already immune) and the ability to fire at the unit in combat with you is awesome. This is why Defilers and Helbrutes became excellent options where they were otherwise "middling" a little.

I also usually have a points put aside so I can summon Epidemius (a 6 on 3 dice) who usually hangs back for the game on an objective. The reason being is that 9th encourages MSU gameplay and that means increasing his tally becomes a lot quicker and easier to do. Toughness 9 Plagueburst Crawlers anyone? What about toughness 8 MBH's, Foetid Bloat drones, Defilers and Helbrutes all with Disgustingly Resilient?

It's a tough nut of an army to face although I would never take a Predator or Land Raider - mostly because those are Imperium vehicles and as much as you dress them up with spikeybits and ooze, they still have the stench of redundant marines on them.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Sumilidon wrote:
I play a very daemon-engine heavy list and in honesty the 4+ doesn't mean as much as it did in 8th edition. if anything, it got better. -1 to hit after moving with heavy weapons was removed for them (except MBH who were already immune) and the ability to fire at the unit in combat with you is awesome. This is why Defilers and Helbrutes became excellent options where they were otherwise "middling" a little.

I also usually have a points put aside so I can summon Epidemius (a 6 on 3 dice) who usually hangs back for the game on an objective. The reason being is that 9th encourages MSU gameplay and that means increasing his tally becomes a lot quicker and easier to do. Toughness 9 Plagueburst Crawlers anyone? What about toughness 8 MBH's, Foetid Bloat drones, Defilers and Helbrutes all with Disgustingly Resilient?

It's a tough nut of an army to face although I would never take a Predator or Land Raider - mostly because those are Imperium vehicles and as much as you dress them up with spikeybits and ooze, they still have the stench of redundant marines on them.


So you field helbrutes? What role do you use them for? I'm thinking of using them as tank killers with ranged weaponry. Are they good for that?
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





 PPPointyEars wrote:
Sumilidon wrote:
I play a very daemon-engine heavy list and in honesty the 4+ doesn't mean as much as it did in 8th edition. if anything, it got better. -1 to hit after moving with heavy weapons was removed for them (except MBH who were already immune) and the ability to fire at the unit in combat with you is awesome. This is why Defilers and Helbrutes became excellent options where they were otherwise "middling" a little.

I also usually have a points put aside so I can summon Epidemius (a 6 on 3 dice) who usually hangs back for the game on an objective. The reason being is that 9th encourages MSU gameplay and that means increasing his tally becomes a lot quicker and easier to do. Toughness 9 Plagueburst Crawlers anyone? What about toughness 8 MBH's, Foetid Bloat drones, Defilers and Helbrutes all with Disgustingly Resilient?

It's a tough nut of an army to face although I would never take a Predator or Land Raider - mostly because those are Imperium vehicles and as much as you dress them up with spikeybits and ooze, they still have the stench of redundant marines on them.


So you field helbrutes? What role do you use them for? I'm thinking of using them as tank killers with ranged weaponry. Are they good for that?


I have tried using them a couple of ways but I generally find them better as a holdingunit. MBH and FBDs are first wave due to speed. Defilers and Helbrutes next with PBCs holding back field.
   
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"find them better as a holdingunit"

Are they good at that? You've to buff them with CMonstrosity and the bell dude right?
   
 
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