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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Hello everybody!

So I'm wondering whether I want to get back into moving around some Warjacks and Warbeasts. From cross-reading here, the PP forums and some random google hits I know that the game is not as alive anymore as it used to be, but it seems the majority of still-active players agree that the current state is balance-wise quite good. While I'm aware that DakkaDakka might not be the best place to ask, I do not use Facebook/reddit/twitter and - honestly - compared to the other forums I've seen or re-visited after a long absence DakkaDakka seems to be the most lively place.

Maybe some background first:
I've been playing the game during late MkI to mid-MkII, starting with Khador (came for the jacks, left because I didn't want to play Warmachine Imperial Army - big dissappointment) and then switching over to Circle as my main faction. Battles have been mostly between 25-40 points, rarely at 50, never beyond that. I always felt WarmaHordes excels as a "grand skirmish". Reason for my drop-out back in the day was mainly the increasingly competitive local gaming community, ramping up the combos with every week, exchanging terrain step-by-step with 2D-cutouts with "forest" or "mountain" written on it. Me, I enjoy envisioning a list and playing it a few times to figure out what it can do, ideally against an opponent who does the same.

Nowadays, the plan would be to get back into the game as a casual game among friends/family, getting a game down with 1-2 friends and my wife every now and then. It won't be the main system, it won't be played at sophisticated levels, and for sure it won't be played in a store.
Although I'm pretty sure it will deliver fun times, I'm still kinda unsettled by what I've read about the current state of WarmaHordes: There seems to have been a really bad transition from MkII to MkIII, people are complaining about model quality, and with store having partial stocks only or sales on WarmaHordes stuff I'm wondering whether a new edition might be around the corner...

In short, what bothers me:
1) Despite the bad ending, I have a lot of fond memories of WarmaHordes MkII. I don't mind changes in the game as long as they are meaningful, but does it still stay true to its core feeling of "my decisions matter, not my luck in dice rolling"? Is an army still a toolbox that - depending on the chosen warlock/warcaster, ofc - allows multiple ways to victory? Mind you, we won't play at tournament level.

2) What about the model quality? Is it really THAT bad? I would hate to drop some cash on models, look forward to assembling them and then find boardgame-level miniatures (or worse) with massive gaps and cheapass materials in the box... Even more so as I'm really on the fence for a Convergence of Cyriss army box. Love the looks, love the army idea and concept (based on Warmachine University).

3) MkIII is not exactly new anymore. If skimmed the "what would you wish for Mk4" thread, but so far I can't find anything substantial. I don't really care about Warcaster, and I have no clue what "Iron Company" wants to be. I don't mind buying and sticking with MkIII, but it would be a bit annoying if I bought into MkIII now and 2 months later Mk4 is being released.

4) With regard to my eyeing with Convergence of Cyriss: Do they suffer from bad model quality? And how do you think they would hold up in such a casual gaming environment with most games probably around 30-40 points? Is there a chance of the faction being fun? Or do they require more regular and/or larger games to function properly and I'm up for a second big dissappointment?

Looking forward to your feedback!

   
Made in us
Dipping With Wood Stain




Seattle, WA USA

Well, any game can be fine if you're playing with a limited set of like-minded folks. The main meta, from my understanding, though is even more "tourney minded" than when you left. Granted, I haven't looked hard lately (especially with COVID) at local scenes, but honestly before COVID there wasn't much anyway, and the last Adepticon I was at the tables were covered with barely "3 colors" painted models and tons of flat neoprene zones for terrain.

As for the other questions...

1) Not in my opinion. Generally, the game feels more centered around finding the mega combos, but this could be more due to what I saw in my area than anything else.

2) Yes, it really can be that bad. Some models are fine (mostly the resin or metal ones), but the PVC stuff they used in the starter boxes (and others) is "boardgame quality" at best, IMO.

3) Not really a question I guess, but there's still "active" development/changes/churn via the CID program, but that really only affects you if you're wanting to do tournaments and make sure you're always "up to date." There's been no rumors of Mk 4, but then, Mk 3 also didn't have much publicity before it dropped (even to the volunteer crews, like Infernals...).

4) Most of the Convergence models at initial release were PVC, and all of those that I have were some of the worst models I have ever gotten, from any company, let alone PP. The metals (not sure what all there are there) were ok, but the PVC stuff was garbage, IMO. I can't say much on their playstyle in Mk III because I never played them in that edition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/08/31 23:25:21


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I think the reason the transition to Mk.III fell flat was the timing of the roll-out. They rebalanced the game around using more warjacks/warbeasts and less infantry, but they didn't release the theme forces that let infantry remain relevant for too long, so mono-build warjack-spam lists dominated the game for long enough that a lot of the experienced people got bored of it, around the same time those same folks were giving GW another chance due to the change in management.

As to the specific questions:

1) It depends largely on how you're playing. There are lists and strategies (long-shot sneak assassination kinds of stuff) that do feel very random, but most of the time you do have a lot of control over what risks you're taking.

2) I wouldn't describe PP minis as boardgame-level; they're not as good as GW or Corvus Belli, certainly, but they're better than any historical minis I've dealt with.

3) PP isn't Games Workshop; they tend to announce major releases like new armies/new games/edition changes a year in advance, not a month in advance. And even if Mk.IV does make an appearance you'll probably be using the same miniatures to do almost exactly the same things.

4) I've never built any Convergence models myself but I haven't heard complaints from the people I know who have. As to how Convergence holds up in a casual environment I've found that they're weird and hard to use, and weird and hard to counter if played well. You can play them in a casual environment but they may raise the skill bar more than you want. Be particularly cautious of the TEP and the Prime Axiom; they're not overpowered per se but they can require specific tools/strategies to counter that new players may not be aware of and can feel unfair if you don't have the counters.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ygethmir wrote:

4) With regard to my eyeing with Convergence of Cyriss: Do they suffer from bad model quality? And how do you think they would hold up in such a casual gaming environment with most games probably around 30-40 points? Is there a chance of the faction being fun? Or do they require more regular and/or larger games to function properly and I'm up for a second big dissappointment?

Looking forward to your feedback!



The clocks are fun. The PVC stuff definitely isn't the best, but it paints up nicely, particularly if you're inclined for a quick Necron spray style scheme. Some themes are nicer models than others, as for example, the new Strange Bedfellows angel stuff is all metal, which makes for nicer, but more finnicky models. The faction scales fine at lower levels as much as anything in the game does. I can probably give more specific details depending on what casters and themes you're most interested in.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Thanks for the feedback! Highly appreciated!

Tournament meta sounds pretty bad, makes me even more convinced to stick to casual games at home. To be honest, tournaments also look pretty bad. I googled for some tournament pics after reading your post, and wow... it really did get even worse. Playing competitively is definitely not an option. Also, if I'm getting back into WarmaHordes, it will be neither the primary nor the secondary system but rather the casual fix for those times when we feel like having a short and intense battle with some thinking going on.

As for the rules: You're right.
Ultimately, the version we are using doesn't matter that much as long as it's consistent across factions. If it was a possibility I'd most likely just stick to MkII rules, but I inherited two MkI battlegroups with some additional miniatures from a friend, and I don't have any MkII stuff for these two factions. That's actually the main reason why I was asking whether a MkIV might be around: Updating four factions does cost some money, and if a month of waiting buys me the newest edition then that's an acceptable trade-off. But as it is, MkIII seems still the way to go for a while, so I'll just get what I need. That's sufficiently "up to date" for me.

Also, thanks for the PVC warning! I wasn't aware that PP used different material for their starter boxes and was actually considering to buy the Trollblood one... My wife likes the models, and it seemed liked a good deal with rules and some other stuff included. Guess I rather stick to the regular boxes, then.


Now, the Convergence topic... Seems to be controversial...
The experience of @Valander is quite alarming, and I'm not sure if I really want to buy an army box if that's what I have to expect. Even more alarming, the Convergence All-in-one Army Box seems to have its origins in MkII. And Convergence initial release was MkII, right?

Army-wise, I don't have any specific plan for Convergence yet. Axiom and TEP might be a topic in the far future, but as our games will take place in the 30-50 points band I doubt they will make much of an appereance.
Personally, I'm not a powergamer. Usually, list building starts with the units that I'm most attracted to - be it because of the fluff, the looks, or because I have a certain idea in mind. If there's still points left, I'll fill in units that either fit thematically or functionally, thematically usually taking priority. If the list shows potential on the battlefield, i.e., if I don't lose horribly and enjoy what it can do, I'll start the refinement. What I try to achieve is a "swiss army knive" list: I don't want a list that excels at one thing but fails at everything else but a list that has multiple approaches to achieve its goal. Which is partially a reason why I'm interested in Convergence. I could imagine their strong synergy-based playstyle might be able to provide exactly what I'm looking for.

In terms of what casters and themes I'm specifically interested in I have to admit I'm a bit at a loss... I have no clue. I like Father Lucant, Forge Master Syntherion and Axis. Also, Iron Mother but she seems too epic for starting. Then, definitely a Modulator because of the looks. Perhaps add a Frustrum Locus and/or an Enigma Foundry and somebody/something that can repair, I guess.

If you think Convergence is too involved for casual gaming and requiring too much skill on both sides me and the opponent I'll probably drop the idea and just stick with Circle Orboros and Khador.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Southampton, UK

Just to check you're aware, all the rules and stat cards for Mk3 are now free downloads rather than products you have to buy:

Rules
https://privateerpress.com/the-rules-are-free

Cards
http://cards.privateerpress.com/

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ygethmir wrote:
Thanks for the feedback! Highly appreciated!

Tournament meta sounds pretty bad, makes me even more convinced to stick to casual games at home. To be honest, tournaments also look pretty bad. I googled for some tournament pics after reading your post, and wow... it really did get even worse. Playing competitively is definitely not an option. Also, if I'm getting back into WarmaHordes, it will be neither the primary nor the secondary system but rather the casual fix for those times when we feel like having a short and intense battle with some thinking going on.

As for the rules: You're right.
Ultimately, the version we are using doesn't matter that much as long as it's consistent across factions. If it was a possibility I'd most likely just stick to MkII rules, but I inherited two MkI battlegroups with some additional miniatures from a friend, and I don't have any MkII stuff for these two factions. That's actually the main reason why I was asking whether a MkIV might be around: Updating four factions does cost some money, and if a month of waiting buys me the newest edition then that's an acceptable trade-off. But as it is, MkIII seems still the way to go for a while, so I'll just get what I need. That's sufficiently "up to date" for me.


There's very little reason to play old versions of the game to be honest. The rules haven't ever changed that significantly and they've really only improved with each edition. The things people get hung up on are the hardcore tournament model rule balance stuff. The base rules themselves leave no real reason to go back. I'd say MK4 is honestly over a year out if not more. It's POSSIBLE they launch something next summer, but I think another year is more likely.


Also, thanks for the PVC warning! I wasn't aware that PP used different material for their starter boxes and was actually considering to buy the Trollblood one... My wife likes the models, and it seemed liked a good deal with rules and some other stuff included. Guess I rather stick to the regular boxes, then.


For the most part they're not using different materials for the starter boxes than the models. If a model is in the starter box, the normal box is PVC as well unless you can track down one of the original metals, but those don't exist for everything. It really varies a lot, though even the PVC stuff is at least multipart so its more dynamically posed than what often comes in board games. I think the Trollblood starter box is actually one of the better set of PVC sculpts, so it might be a decent way to test it out to see what you think.


Now, the Convergence topic... Seems to be controversial...
The experience of @Valander is quite alarming, and I'm not sure if I really want to buy an army box if that's what I have to expect. Even more alarming, the Convergence All-in-one Army Box seems to have its origins in MkII. And Convergence initial release was MkII, right?

Army-wise, I don't have any specific plan for Convergence yet. Axiom and TEP might be a topic in the far future, but as our games will take place in the 30-50 points band I doubt they will make much of an appereance.
Personally, I'm not a powergamer. Usually, list building starts with the units that I'm most attracted to - be it because of the fluff, the looks, or because I have a certain idea in mind. If there's still points left, I'll fill in units that either fit thematically or functionally, thematically usually taking priority. If the list shows potential on the battlefield, i.e., if I don't lose horribly and enjoy what it can do, I'll start the refinement. What I try to achieve is a "swiss army knive" list: I don't want a list that excels at one thing but fails at everything else but a list that has multiple approaches to achieve its goal. Which is partially a reason why I'm interested in Convergence. I could imagine their strong synergy-based playstyle might be able to provide exactly what I'm looking for.

In terms of what casters and themes I'm specifically interested in I have to admit I'm a bit at a loss... I have no clue. I like Father Lucant, Forge Master Syntherion and Axis. Also, Iron Mother but she seems too epic for starting. Then, definitely a Modulator because of the looks. Perhaps add a Frustrum Locus and/or an Enigma Foundry and somebody/something that can repair, I guess.

If you think Convergence is too involved for casual gaming and requiring too much skill on both sides me and the opponent I'll probably drop the idea and just stick with Circle Orboros and Khador.


Clocks are fine for casual gaming. They're really not any more complicated than other factions and Iron Mother isn't really any more complex than the others. She just has a couple buddies that let her debuff armor from range. Quick caster overview of the 4:

Syntherion - Comes in the starter and with good reason. He likes a lot of jacks and probably best leverages the unique gimmicks in the faction.
Iron Mother - She really likes things with guns and is more likely to make use of the jacks that hover.
Father Lucant - Makes his army very hard to kill and prefers the larger 5 man medium base units.
Axis - Likes swarm tactics. 10 man units, light jacks, etc.

Just based on what you're saying, probably best to play some battlebox games with the starters and look into Clockwork Legions. It's basically a theme of the shield wall infantry with Enigma Foundries replacing casualties or repairing damage.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 LunarSol wrote:
Ygethmir wrote:

Also, thanks for the PVC warning! I wasn't aware that PP used different material for their starter boxes and was actually considering to buy the Trollblood one... My wife likes the models, and it seemed liked a good deal with rules and some other stuff included. Guess I rather stick to the regular boxes, then.

For the most part they're not using different materials for the starter boxes than the models. If a model is in the starter box, the normal box is PVC as well unless you can track down one of the original metals, but those don't exist for everything. It really varies a lot, though even the PVC stuff is at least multipart so its more dynamically posed than what often comes in board games. I think the Trollblood starter box is actually one of the better set of PVC sculpts, so it might be a decent way to test it out to see what you think.

The material for the Mk 3 Battleboxes is different from what they use for the Mk2 Battleboxes and non-metal regular models. It's more of a plastic (though not really compatible with plastic welds due to being a different chemical composition).

For Trollbloods the quick way to check to see if its Mk 2 or Mk 3 is if there is a Troll with a big shield on the box. If there is a shield, then it is Mk 3 and they'll come in a light blue plastic (to match their faction color). If there is no shield, then it is either Mk 2 or Mk 1. Mk 1 will be metal, but the Mk 2 will be that PVC. The plastic is no where near GW quality, but it's not horrible nor as fragile as the stuff they use for everything else.

Unfortunately, they only made Mk 3 starters for the "big names" of Warmachine and Hordes: Cygnar, Kahdor, Cryx, Protectorate, Retribution, Circle, Trollbloods, Legion, and Skorne. Convergance did have a Mk 2 starter box, but is considered a "limited faction" now, so I wouldn't expect an updated starter any time soon.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Exalted Daemon





Albany, NY

Fun Fact #1: I was really excited about COC back when, and preordered that starter set and some metal support crew. I couldn't handle the material at all, so turned around and sold the lot for a loss. To this day, I'd still like to play COC, but can't stomach paying $$ for some of the worst material I've tried working with when it comes to the models I want to use (cyphers for days).

Fun Fact #2: I'm getting closer and closer to finally painting some of my massive Cryx backlog, because dammit, I really wanted to play a second faction after Skorne back when, so here's to at least putting paint towards that, if not actually playing

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine




Ygethmir wrote:
Hello everybody!

So I'm wondering whether I want to get back into moving around some Warjacks and Warbeasts. From cross-reading here, the PP forums and some random google hits I know that the game is not as alive anymore as it used to be, but it seems the majority of still-active players agree that the current state is balance-wise quite good. While I'm aware that DakkaDakka might not be the best place to ask, I do not use Facebook/reddit/twitter and - honestly - compared to the other forums I've seen or re-visited after a long absence DakkaDakka seems to be the most lively place.

Maybe some background first:
I've been playing the game during late MkI to mid-MkII, starting with Khador (came for the jacks, left because I didn't want to play Warmachine Imperial Army - big dissappointment) and then switching over to Circle as my main faction. Battles have been mostly between 25-40 points, rarely at 50, never beyond that. I always felt WarmaHordes excels as a "grand skirmish". Reason for my drop-out back in the day was mainly the increasingly competitive local gaming community, ramping up the combos with every week, exchanging terrain step-by-step with 2D-cutouts with "forest" or "mountain" written on it. Me, I enjoy envisioning a list and playing it a few times to figure out what it can do, ideally against an opponent who does the same.

Nowadays, the plan would be to get back into the game as a casual game among friends/family, getting a game down with 1-2 friends and my wife every now and then. It won't be the main system, it won't be played at sophisticated levels, and for sure it won't be played in a store.
Although I'm pretty sure it will deliver fun times, I'm still kinda unsettled by what I've read about the current state of WarmaHordes: There seems to have been a really bad transition from MkII to MkIII, people are complaining about model quality, and with store having partial stocks only or sales on WarmaHordes stuff I'm wondering whether a new edition might be around the corner...

In short, what bothers me:
1) Despite the bad ending, I have a lot of fond memories of WarmaHordes MkII. I don't mind changes in the game as long as they are meaningful, but does it still stay true to its core feeling of "my decisions matter, not my luck in dice rolling"? Is an army still a toolbox that - depending on the chosen warlock/warcaster, ofc - allows multiple ways to victory? Mind you, we won't play at tournament level.

2) What about the model quality? Is it really THAT bad? I would hate to drop some cash on models, look forward to assembling them and then find boardgame-level miniatures (or worse) with massive gaps and cheapass materials in the box... Even more so as I'm really on the fence for a Convergence of Cyriss army box. Love the looks, love the army idea and concept (based on Warmachine University).

3) MkIII is not exactly new anymore. If skimmed the "what would you wish for Mk4" thread, but so far I can't find anything substantial. I don't really care about Warcaster, and I have no clue what "Iron Company" wants to be. I don't mind buying and sticking with MkIII, but it would be a bit annoying if I bought into MkIII now and 2 months later Mk4 is being released.

4) With regard to my eyeing with Convergence of Cyriss: Do they suffer from bad model quality? And how do you think they would hold up in such a casual gaming environment with most games probably around 30-40 points? Is there a chance of the faction being fun? Or do they require more regular and/or larger games to function properly and I'm up for a second big dissappointment?

Looking forward to your feedback!



You need to go here.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/reviews/2020/5/19/wartable

the LOS discord is very cool too.

CoC great, and competitive due to the Oblivion campaign range update. Since you are a vet of the game I will just say this.

Asphyxious is CoC and can still take Cryx jack.

 
   
 
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