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Hey all. I was free and clear of 40k for over 5 years. I stopped somewhere in the middle of 6.5 edition, after playing for a good while in 5th and 6th. Anyway, my nephew expressed an interest in starting (and I still have my models), so I picked up a rulebook today and dusted off my dakkadakka account. So, if some of these questions are from 8th, please excuse my ignorance.

1. Engagement range - you cannot move within 1" of enemy models in movement phase. Is there anyway, outside of remnants of close combat, that you would be within engagement range of a model? Specifically, looking for when you can only remain staionary or fall back.

2. Vehicles - following above, I saw no rules for tank shock, displacing infantry, etc. Am I correct that vehicles cannot drive through enemy models now? So, a wall of gretchin can stall out a land raider?

3. Land Raiders have a WS skill and Attack number. So, vehicles that are in contact with models can issue attacks. Can vehicles charge then? pile in? consolidate?

4. I saw nothing about arc of fire. So, do vehicles now have 360 shooting arcs?

5. Reserves - do you just decide what turn they come in now?

Again, apologies if these are basic questions. Just trying to get things sorted and pickup games are a little tougher right now with COVID.

Thanks in advance!!!

 Green is Best! wrote:
Hey all. I was free and clear of 40k for over 5 years. I stopped somewhere in the middle of 6.5 edition, after playing for a good while in 5th and 6th. Anyway, my nephew expressed an interest in starting (and I still have my models), so I picked up a rulebook today and dusted off my dakkadakka account. So, if some of these questions are from 8th, please excuse my ignorance.

1. Engagement range - you cannot move within 1" of enemy models in movement phase. Is there anyway, outside of remnants of close combat, that you would be within engagement range of a model? Specifically, looking for when you can only remain staionary or fall back.

2. Vehicles - following above, I saw no rules for tank shock, displacing infantry, etc. Am I correct that vehicles cannot drive through enemy models now? So, a wall of gretchin can stall out a land raider?

3. Land Raiders have a WS skill and Attack number. So, vehicles that are in contact with models can issue attacks. Can vehicles charge then? pile in? consolidate?

4. I saw nothing about arc of fire. So, do vehicles now have 360 shooting arcs?

5. Reserves - do you just decide what turn they come in now?

Again, apologies if these are basic questions. Just trying to get things sorted and pickup games are a little tougher right now with COVID.

Thanks in advance!!!

1) When you charge in the Charge Phase, you move within Engagement Range of enemy models in order to attack them in the subsequent fight phase. AFAIK the only ways to get within Engagement Range of enemy models is via charging, or via a "loophole" of the Strategic Reserves rule.

2) Correct, Tank Shock isn't a thing. If you manage to encircle a Land Raider with Gretchen, it can't escape. However, 9th introduced two new mechanics to fix this issue of 8th. First is that VEHICLES can now shoot their non-Blast guns at enemy units they are within Engagement Range of. Those Gretchen are not gonna have a fun time trying to tarpit a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer! Second is a stratagem that allows you to move though enemy models when falling back, albeit with the risk of having models slain, so not really worth risking losing a several hundred point vehicle to do so.

3) Vehicles pretty much act like Monstrous Creatures used to. They are no different to any other model. They make Charges, Pile Ins, Close Combat Attacks, and Consolidates just like any other model. They have the same Strength and Toughness system that all other models use. Just keep in mind that all models with 10 or more wounds (not a core rule, but something that has been applied consistently to all 10 or more wound models afaik) have what is called a damage table. As these models lose wounds, some of their characteristics change. In General (9th edition is not standardised as much as previous editions, everything is bespoke on the datasheets) Tanks generally worsen in Movement, BS, and Attacks as they degrade, Walkers lose Movement, WS, and BS, and Monstrous Creatures lose WS, BS, and Attacks (although there is an example of a Forge World Bloodthirster that gets MORE attacks as it gets wounded!).

4) Fire Arcs no longer exist in any capacity. All models now can draw LOS from any part of the model to any part of the target model. The only thing "arcs" exist in anymore is in the movement of some AIRCRAFT.

5) Random Reserves is no longer a thing. You have full control as to when any units set up outside the battlefield or in Strategic Reserves. There are certain restrictions as to when (e.g. In matched play, you can't do so in the first turn, and any units that don't by turn 3 are destroyed), and as to where, that is detailed in whatever rule is being used to set up those models. The most common rule is "anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" away from enemy models" (scattering from Deep Strike isn't a thing anymore).

 BaconCatBug wrote:
1) When you charge in the Charge Phase, you move within Engagement Range of enemy models in order to attack them in the subsequent fight phase. AFAIK the only ways to get within Engagement Range of enemy models is via charging, or via a "loophole" of the Strategic Reserves rule.

You can also enter Engagement Range of an enemy using Heroic Intervention, Pile In or Consolidation.

 Cheex wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
1) When you charge in the Charge Phase, you move within Engagement Range of enemy models in order to attack them in the subsequent fight phase. AFAIK the only ways to get within Engagement Range of enemy models is via charging, or via a "loophole" of the Strategic Reserves rule.

You can also enter Engagement Range of an enemy using Heroic Intervention, Pile In or Consolidation.

Fair point, I had them all wrapped up in my headspace as "charge phase". Derp!

This is a good point OP to follow a simple rules maxim: Forget everything you know and read the rules for what they say now.

@green


40K is no longer the game you played. 8th edition was as much of a huge change to the game as the switch from 2nd RPG style 40K to 3rd ed tactical wargame style of play.


Initially index 8th edition was super streamlined and at first most people liked it ( i prefer to use it for epic 40K rules), however later in the edition GW followed the same exact formula that killed 7th edition. previously it was formation spam that broke the game with bloat and power creep that was replaced with command point and stratagem spamming in 8th. turning current 9th edition 40K more akin to a collectible card game like magic (with the constant rules changes/updates to go with it) than a TT wargame.

That is why you have noticed so much missing from the game you used to play.

Many of us who want more of a wargame have gone back to playing older editions of the game with our local community. our group uses 5th edition for example, but i know others who have stayed with 7th but without game breaking formations.

Thanks for the input everyone. Follow up questions:

If I am running an army of Emperor's Children with Lucius as one of my HQs. I decide to add a squad of Daemonettes to this list.

1. Can Lucius join that squad?
2. If he does join, his movement is 6" and the daemonettes are 7". Are the daemonettes reduced to 6" or do the models move as stated and Lucius just has to keep up and stay in coherency?
3. Now that I mention it, I do not recall seeing any rules about characters joining squads.... is that still allowed?
4. In this list above, daemonettes are troops but do not benefit from any EMPEROR'S CHILDREN traits. Is this correct?


Thanks again!!

Characters cannot join squads. They are stand alone units. You cannot add daemonettes to a emperors children detachment, they lack the <LEGION> keyword, you could create a SLAANESH detachment, but you wouldnt have a legion trait, nor the slaanesh daemonic locus. You would need a separate daemon detachment, or you would need to summon them, or you would need a aux support detachment with them.

 p5freak wrote:
Characters cannot join squads. They are stand alone units. You cannot add daemonettes to a emperors children detachment, they lack the <LEGION> keyword, you could create a SLAANESH detachment, but you wouldnt have a legion trait, nor the slaanesh daemonic locus. You would need a separate daemon detachment, or you would need to summon them, or you would need a aux support detachment with them.

Understood. Following up on characters, how does that work with respect to embarking on vehicles? I don't see any restrictions other than the number and type allowed? So, 2 characters and a 5 man squad can jump in a rhino... but they are 3 separate units?

So, characters cannot join squads like in the past, but if they have 9 wounds or less AND are within 3" of another unit, they cannot be picked out per the LOOK OUT SIR rule?

 Green is Best! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Characters cannot join squads. They are stand alone units. You cannot add daemonettes to a emperors children detachment, they lack the <LEGION> keyword, you could create a SLAANESH detachment, but you wouldnt have a legion trait, nor the slaanesh daemonic locus. You would need a separate daemon detachment, or you would need to summon them, or you would need a aux support detachment with them.

Understood. Following up on characters, how does that work with respect to embarking on vehicles? I don't see any restrictions other than the number and type allowed? So, 2 characters and a 5 man squad can jump in a rhino... but they are 3 separate units?

So, characters cannot join squads like in the past, but if they have 9 wounds or less AND are within 3" of another unit, they cannot be picked out per the LOOK OUT SIR rule?

Yes, thats exactly right on both accounts.

For transports, only the maximum allowed models really counts, it is indeed possible to put multiple different units in one.

You are also correct about look out sir but the non character stuff must also be closer to the firing unit as well (bear in mind that non monster or vehicle units must contain at least 3 models to confer look out sir. There has been a faq to clarify certain issues with characters that are also monsters protecting one another (i.e. they dont) so check out the faqs on the warhammer community page (or i beleive the app now has them if you are willing to pay £4 a month.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Characters cannot join squads. They are stand alone units. You cannot add daemonettes to a emperors children detachment, they lack the <LEGION> keyword, you could create a SLAANESH detachment, but you wouldnt have a legion trait, nor the slaanesh daemonic locus. You would need a separate daemon detachment, or you would need to summon them, or you would need a aux support detachment with them.

Understood. Following up on characters, how does that work with respect to embarking on vehicles? I don't see any restrictions other than the number and type allowed? So, 2 characters and a 5 man squad can jump in a rhino... but they are 3 separate units?

So, characters cannot join squads like in the past, but if they have 9 wounds or less AND are within 3" of another unit, they cannot be picked out per the LOOK OUT SIR rule?

Yes, you can have more than one unit embarked in a vehicle now as long as there is transport capacity, so you could have 2 characters and a 5 man squad in a Rhino.

Characters of 9 wounds or less may be screened by being within 3" of another unit, but there are restrictions - they have to be a non-character unit, it must be closer to the firing unit than the character, and it has to be a vehicle, monster, or a unit with 3 or more models. You can't have a unit of only 2 grots that have survived earlier battles screening a Warboss, you would need at least 3 grots.

 p5freak wrote:
Characters cannot join squads. They are stand alone units. You cannot add daemonettes to a emperors children detachment, they lack the <LEGION> keyword, you could create a SLAANESH detachment, but you wouldnt have a legion trait, nor the slaanesh daemonic locus. You would need a separate daemon detachment, or you would need to summon them, or you would need a aux support detachment with them.

I am a little confused here then. How would I go about including daemons in a chaos space marines detachment then? I do not see any HQ that would match with that, if I have to match all the keywords (Chaos, Slaanesh, Daemon). Is it possible to take daemons and space marines in the same detachment?

Thanks,

 Green is Best! wrote:
I am a little confused here then. How would I go about including daemons in a chaos space marines detachment then? I do not see any HQ that would match with that, if I have to match all the keywords (Chaos, Slaanesh, Daemon). Is it possible to take daemons and space marines in the same detachment?

Thanks,

To be a battle forged army, you can not have daemons and space marines in the same detachment

If you are not battle forged (Usually referred to as unbound) you can have whatever you want, but you lose a lot of army specific rules.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Characters cannot join squads. They are stand alone units. You cannot add daemonettes to a emperors children detachment, they lack the <LEGION> keyword, you could create a SLAANESH detachment, but you wouldnt have a legion trait, nor the slaanesh daemonic locus. You would need a separate daemon detachment, or you would need to summon them, or you would need a aux support detachment with them.

I am a little confused here then. How would I go about including daemons in a chaos space marines detachment then? I do not see any HQ that would match with that, if I have to match all the keywords (Chaos, Slaanesh, Daemon). Is it possible to take daemons and space marines in the same detachment?

Thanks,

You don't. Daemons and CSM are totally separate armies now. You can theoretically do it, but you shouldn't as you lose all your detachment bonuses. If you want to have daemons in your CSM army you either pay a CP penalty for an additional detachment, or summon them in, leaving aside reinforcement points to do so.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
I am a little confused here then. How would I go about including daemons in a chaos space marines detachment then? I do not see any HQ that would match with that, if I have to match all the keywords (Chaos, Slaanesh, Daemon). Is it possible to take daemons and space marines in the same detachment?

Thanks,

To be a battle forged army, you can not have daemons and space marines in the same detachment

Not true. You can make a SLAANESH detachment with csm units with mark of SLAANESH and SLAANESH daemons. Units in a detachment need one common keyword, and it cant be CHAOS. You would be battleforged, because all your units are in detachments. You wouldnt have a legion trait, and you wouldnt have a daemonic locus.
If you want to have a legion trait, and a daemonic locus, you would need two separate detachments with pure csm and pure daemons. If you want a legion trait and daemons you can summon them, but no locus. You can also add one daemon unit in a aux support detachment, but they wouldnt have a locus.

I guess my confusion stems from why the daemon troop choices are in the CSM codex. Is it just to provide datasheets for units that are summoned?

 Green is Best! wrote:
I guess my confusion stems from why the daemon troop choices are in the CSM codex. Is it just to provide datasheets for units that are summoned?

In short, yes. It gives some summoning options without needing to buy a totally different codex. Note the keywords on those daemon units, or rather the lack of the <LEGION> keyword. Summoned units are not part of any detachment, so summoning them doesn't break anything.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
I guess my confusion stems from why the daemon troop choices are in the CSM codex. Is it just to provide datasheets for units that are summoned?

In short, yes. It gives some summoning options without needing to buy a totally different codex. Note the keywords on those daemon units, or rather the lack of the <LEGION> keyword. Summoned units are not part of any detachment, so summoning them doesn't break anything.

Can you point me to the right page of the rule book or codex for this? The For Example portion on p245 makes it sound like an Intercessor squad can be in a detachment as long as it says IMPERIUM or ADEPTUS ASTARTES.

So, upon relooking at this, you could make a legal battle forged detachment using Abaddon and Bloodletters (as they both have Khorne as a keyword?). But, you would not be able to add anything else to the detachment?

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
I am a little confused here then. How would I go about including daemons in a chaos space marines detachment then? I do not see any HQ that would match with that, if I have to match all the keywords (Chaos, Slaanesh, Daemon). Is it possible to take daemons and space marines in the same detachment?

Thanks,

To be a battle forged army, you can not have daemons and space marines in the same detachment

Not true. You can make a SLAANESH detachment with csm units with mark of SLAANESH and SLAANESH daemons. Units in a detachment need one common keyword, and it cant be CHAOS. You would be battleforged, because all your units are in detachments. You wouldnt have a legion trait, and you wouldnt have a daemonic locus.
If you want to have a legion trait, and a daemonic locus, you would need two separate detachments with pure csm and pure daemons. If you want a legion trait and daemons you can summon them, but no locus. You can also add one daemon unit in a aux support detachment, but they wouldnt have a locus.

Your statement (about mine being not true) is incorrect.

CSM and SM are not the same thing, so what I said was true. (though I missed that he said chaos space marines detachment, I thought he was talking about a space marines detachment).

OK. I think I found it. Is this correct?

I can take daemons from the CSM codex along with other units (helbrutes, vindicators, etc) and still be battle forged.

However, in order to gain the legion trait, all units in the detachment must be from the same legion. As daemons lack the legion trait, including them would negate this.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
I guess my confusion stems from why the daemon troop choices are in the CSM codex. Is it just to provide datasheets for units that are summoned?

In short, yes. It gives some summoning options without needing to buy a totally different codex. Note the keywords on those daemon units, or rather the lack of the <LEGION> keyword. Summoned units are not part of any detachment, so summoning them doesn't break anything.

Can you point me to the right page of the rule book or codex for this? The For Example portion on p245 makes it sound like an Intercessor squad can be in a detachment as long as it says IMPERIUM or ADEPTUS ASTARTES.

So, upon relooking at this, you could make a legal battle forged detachment using Abaddon and Bloodletters (as they both have Khorne as a keyword?). But, you would not be able to add anything else to the detachment?

The point is, you CAN have Abaddon and Bloodletters in the same detachment, as well as any other unit with the KHORNE keyword, but you SHOULDN'T do so, as doing so means you lose the trait for that detachment and put yourself at a massive disadvantage. The detachment won't get the Black Legion detachment trait, nor will it get the Locus of Khorne detachment trait from the Daemons codex.

Another example, you could theoretically have a patrol of a IMPERIAL FISTS Captain, ULTRAMARINES Intercessors, and a unit of BLOOD ANGEL Intercessors, as they all have the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword, but it'll be far less effective than taking a ULTRAMARINES Captain and two units of ULTRAMARINES Intercessors, since the former will have no detachment trait and only benefit from Combat Doctrines, while the latter will all be buffed with the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, Combat Doctrines AND and the Ultramarine Superdoctrine.

 DeathReaper wrote:


CSM and SM are not the same thing, so what I said was true.

Where does it say CHAOS cannot be used as the common faction keyword?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:
I guess my confusion stems from why the daemon troop choices are in the CSM codex. Is it just to provide datasheets for units that are summoned?

In short, yes. It gives some summoning options without needing to buy a totally different codex. Note the keywords on those daemon units, or rather the lack of the <LEGION> keyword. Summoned units are not part of any detachment, so summoning them doesn't break anything.

Can you point me to the right page of the rule book or codex for this? The For Example portion on p245 makes it sound like an Intercessor squad can be in a detachment as long as it says IMPERIUM or ADEPTUS ASTARTES.

So, upon relooking at this, you could make a legal battle forged detachment using Abaddon and Bloodletters (as they both have Khorne as a keyword?). But, you would not be able to add anything else to the detachment?

The point is, you CAN have Abaddon and Bloodletters in the same detachment, as well as any other unit with the KHORNE keyword, but you SHOULDN'T do so, as doing so means you lose the trait for that detachment and put yourself at a massive disadvantage. The detachment won't get the Black Legion detachment trait, nor will it get the Locus of Khorne detachment trait from the Daemons codex.

As Abaddon has all 4 marks, you could theoretically have one of each type of daemon in this detachment. You would be batte forged, but lost legion and locus?
Sorry if this is coming across as being nitpicky. I am just trying to fully understand the battle forged and detachments concepts before trying to explain to my nephew.

Thanks again

You most likely couldn't have Abaddon with daemons of all 4 gods in the same detachment, as they would only share the CHAOS keyword and that cannot be the only keyword that units in a detachment share.

 Green is Best! wrote:
As Abaddon has all 4 marks, you could theoretically have one of each type of daemon in this detachment. You would be batte forged, but lost legion and locus?
Sorry if this is coming across as being nitpicky. I am just trying to fully understand the battle forged and detachments concepts before trying to explain to my nephew.

Thanks again

Abaddon has the KHORNE, NURGLE, SLAANESH, and TZEENTCH faction keywords. So you could have ONE set of daemons, but not all four in Eternal War missions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Green is Best! wrote:
Where does it say CHAOS cannot be used as the common faction keyword?

BRB, Page 280. It's part of the Eternal War mission pack, which is the default mission pack for Matched Play. In Narrative play you can use CHAOS to bind a detachment together just fine.

 Green is Best! wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


CSM and SM are not the same thing, so what I said was true.

Where does it say CHAOS cannot be used as the common faction keyword?

Was this supposed to be directed towards me?
Because I was not talking about that at all.

However in matched play it says in the BRB on P. 280 section 2. 7th sentence details that you can not use CHAOS and a few others.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Green is Best! wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:


CSM and SM are not the same thing, so what I said was true.

Where does it say CHAOS cannot be used as the common faction keyword?

Was this supposed to be directed towards me?
Because I was not talking about that at all.

However in matched play it says in the BRB on P. 280 section 2. 7th sentence details that you can not use CHAOS and a few others.

Yes. I was looking at pages 244-246 and could not find anything. I did not think to go into the Matched Play section. And I wasn't trying to be spiteful, I was just confused as I was looking in the wrong section.

THANKS!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK. Here is another one:
I remember back in 5th and 6th, the controversy of pivoting oblong models (landraiders, heldrakes, etc.) to "gain movement."


There is a sentence in the movement phase that says "the distance a model moves is measure using the part of the model's base that moves furthest along its path." How is this being interpreted? If a land raider can move 10", should I just measure 10" off the hull and stay "wholly within" that radius?

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. Here is another one:
I remember back in 5th and 6th, the controversy of pivoting oblong models (landraiders, heldrakes, etc.) to "gain movement."

There is a sentence in the movement phase that says "the distance a model moves is measure using the part of the model's base that moves furthest along its path." How is this being interpreted? If a land raider can move 10", should I just measure 10" off the hull and stay "wholly within" that radius?

They do not do the pivoting thing anymore. Just make sure no part of a model moves over the movement characteristic on its datasheet.

Another way of wording that, would be to say that "the distance is the part of the base/model that's travelled the furthest". So no, you can't pivot to gain a couple of inches for free, as the end you've swung out then counts towards the distance travelled.

 Green is Best! wrote:
OK. Here is another one:
I remember back in 5th and 6th, the controversy of pivoting oblong models (landraiders, heldrakes, etc.) to "gain movement."


There is a sentence in the movement phase that says "the distance a model moves is measure using the part of the model's base that moves furthest along its path." How is this being interpreted? If a land raider can move 10", should I just measure 10" off the hull and stay "wholly within" that radius?

Models don't need to pivot to move, they can move freely, doing backflips and doughnuts as they go. You simply cannot move any part of the base or hull more than it's movement phase. You can never "gain" movement via rotation since you can't move any part more than your movement. Like you said, the model has a "bubble" around it when it starts it move and no part of the model can move past that point.

OK, switching to artefacts of chaos.If I want to take The Black Mace, it can only be given to a model with a Power Maul. So, I choose the appropriate model that can take a melee weapon, pay the 4 points for the power maul, and then convert it to the Black Mace for free. I can only do this with one artefact. Am I correct here?

Also, if I wanted to make a Night Lords army, I could take the Outrider Detachment option and could go all Raptors with a Jump pack Chaos lord. However, they would not get the Despoilers of the Galaxy trait as they are not troops.