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Cobleskill

I'll start. I realized that I can field a Superheavy detachment with household traits, in a 500 point Combat Patrol. (not that I would )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 14:54:52


'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!' 
   
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 carldooley wrote:
I'll start. I realized that I can field a Superheavy detachment with household traits, in a 500 point Combat Patrol. (not that I would )


With like 3 armigers?

IDK I think that would be about as hard to deal with as a spearhead with the upgraded IH character guy and some dreadnoughts.

meh.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Falls Church, VA

I can put my guys on a catwalk 5" off the table and infantrymen can't walk underneath them without making a charge, getting into melee, and having a fist fight with the guys 30 feet above them in the air.

No one can actually swing, of course, since they're not within 1/2". But they're in engagement range, so until someone runs away they just sit there 5" apart vertically and menace each other with angry faces and harsh words (you can fire pistols though)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 15:20:20


 
   
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My personal favorite bit of 9th ed specific rules comedy so far is the rule that says NO RULES are in effect when a unit is in a transport, because it has hilarious effects when combined with open-topped transports.

The vehicle upgrade "Splinter Racks" for Drukhari which grants a bonus to the unit firing from inside the vehicle, RAW does nothing. As does the Kabal trait that grants a reroll if a FLAYED SKULL unit attacks from within a transport.

ork Tankbustas have a datasheet rule that says they get reroll to hit vs vehicles - unfortunately doesn't work from inside a transport! But, fortunately, their upgrade unit "Bomb Squigs" is a BS2+ rokkit that has a rule on its datasheet that says remove the firer after it makes an attack.

Whoops! RAW you can't have rules! You can fit 3 tankbusta squads with 5 bomb squigs in a cheap battlewagon, that means 5 BS2+ shots you can just use over and over again!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:

No one can actually swing, of course, since they're not within 1/2". But they're in engagement range, so until someone runs away they just sit there 5" apart vertically and menace each other with angry faces and harsh words (you can fire pistols though)


This is wrong. The rule is "Within engagement range or within 1/2" of a model within 1/2." They can fight, just only the models within Engagement Range.

A whole edition where baneblades can draw LOS from their track through a window and fire all their guns: Perfectly suspendable disbelief!

An edition where you have to imagine models can either reach up, or climb, to fight targets above them instead of crazed khorne bezerkers and scuttling genestealers going "Welp, they are 10 feet above us, can't possibly fight that!" - awful, terrible, can't suspend disbelief?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 15:27:16


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Unit1126PLL wrote:

No one can actually swing, of course, since they're not within 1/2". But they're in engagement range, so until someone runs away they just sit there 5" apart vertically and menace each other with angry faces and harsh words (you can fire pistols though)


This is wrong. The rule is "Within engagement range or within 1/2" of a model within 1/2." They can fight, just only the models within Engagement Range.


Unit1126PLL is correct. I was going to make a joke about a infantry model on the first floor of a ruin punching a model on the second as well. lol

Engagement range is 1" horizontally and 5" vertically. If you're outside of 1" of distance but within a 1/2" of a model that is within engagement range, you can also fight (in addition to any models actually directly in engagement range). So RAW they cannot pass underneath his models unless they're declaring a charge because they would be within 5" of the vertical distance. In terms of the vertical distance 5"=1" of horizontal. I fully expect this to get some adjustments, but yeah, RAW as they stand, silly things can happen.

This article covers it well I think - https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/warhammer-40k-how-to-cheat-with-engagement-ranges.html

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 15:36:17


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

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... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Falls Church, VA

You're right, the_scotsman, an undefined number of models can fight - the ones directly underneath? But no others.

Or something. I can't parse the rules because I am tired.

(and honestly I'm a fan of the concept of the rule but the idea that my guardsmen on a catwalk efficiently prevent a Tyranid monster from being able to get to the Leman Russ down the street is hilarious).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 15:43:31


 
   
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Tycho wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

No one can actually swing, of course, since they're not within 1/2". But they're in engagement range, so until someone runs away they just sit there 5" apart vertically and menace each other with angry faces and harsh words (you can fire pistols though)


This is wrong. The rule is "Within engagement range or within 1/2" of a model within 1/2." They can fight, just only the models within Engagement Range.


Unit1126PLL is correct. I was going to make a joke about a infantry model on the first floor of a ruin punching a model on the second as well. lol

Engagement range is 1" horizontally and 5" vertically. If you're outside of 1" of distance but within a 1/2" of a model that is within engagement range, you can also fight (in addition to any models actually directly in engagement range). So RAW they cannot pass underneath his models unless they're declaring a charge because they would be within 5" of the vertical distance. In terms of the vertical distance 5"=1" of horizontal. I fully expect this to get some adjustments, but yeah, RAW as they stand, silly things can happen.

This article covers it well I think - https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/warhammer-40k-how-to-cheat-with-engagement-ranges.html


Which leads to a little question. From where is that measurement taken? Is it from the base or is it from the model? Because if it's from the model, it would be a great way to have tall hats attack.

   
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Which leads to a little question. From where is that measurement taken? Is it from the base or is it from the model? Because if it's from the model, it would be a great way to have tall hats attack.


From the base still. They actually mention that in the article too I think.


No one can actually swing, of course, since they're not within 1/2". But they're in engagement range, so until someone runs away they just sit there 5" apart vertically and menace each other with angry faces and harsh words (you can fire pistols though)


I believe you CAN swing. The 1/2" rule is different from the 1"H/5"V engagement range. In order to swing, you just have to be in engagement range. THEN, any models within a half inch of any models already in engagement range can ALSO swing. So, if your Guardsmen are underneath a catwalk and are within 5" vertically and 1" horizontally ... RAW ... pretty sure that's "legal" fight.

Still expecting a FAQ ...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 18:12:15


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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Brisbane

Stupid things? That work?

Catachans Outrider Detachment with just Hellhounds upgraded with a Heavy Flamer and Track Guards... Pedal to the metal, and if they explode, even funnier...

I will not rest until the Tabletop Imperial Guard has been reduced to complete mediocrity. This is completely reflected in the lore. 
   
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Stevenage, UK

Jeez, you guys... it ain't difficult. Scotsman got it right on the first try. Let's break it down, you can fight if you're:

- in Engagement Range, or
- within 1/2" of a model that is itself within 1/2" (which you'll note is NOT Engagement Range)

Apparently, one of the stupid things 9th edition does is break the English language.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in gb
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If Knights are not a sensible choice for combat patrols, should GW give them a new unit to put that to rights? An even smaller knight, or just troops of their own?

For the record, Knights in 40K are a complete mystery to me, although familar with them in Adeptus Titanicus.

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Inside Yvraine

Once the 9e CSM codex drops you'll be able to field 20 man squads of Alpha Legion plague marines buffed by Fabulous Bill. For your buck you get:
-40 wounds
-3+ save
-5+ FnP
-T6
- -1 to be hit

A space marine that has been blinded by a flashbang, firing both parts of his combi-weapon simultaneously through a 1'' hole at an invisible enemy shrouded in a smoke bomb has the same chance of hitting his target as he would shooting at a guy that's just standing behind a chess-high wall.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 19:36:46


 
   
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In My Lab

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Once the 9e CSM codex drops you'll be able to field 20 man squads of Alpha Legion plague marines buffed by Fabulous Bill. For your buck you get:
-40 wounds
-3+ save
-5+ FnP
-T6
- -1 to be hit

Assuming Alpha Legion stays unchanged. I find that unlikely.

Also, how many points is that? That's always the rub with things like that.

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Inside Yvraine

Around 500 after their points increase. Which is pretty tame considering what you get.
   
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Right now there's a lot of "things you can do after all the rules change assuming the rules don't change" concerns floating around.
   
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Open-topped being a complete and utter dumpster fire, and less than 9" charges from deep strike if there are elevation differences, are pretty high on the dumb list.

   
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A mortar can fire over a 2-3 5+" wall buildings and cliffs with no problem and no minus to hit roll.

But if that same mortar fires over some 3" shrubbery ? Wel... clearly it cant hit the target very well so needs to take a -1
to hit penalty.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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Stevenage, UK

yukishiro1 wrote:
less than 9" charges from deep strike if there are elevation differences, are pretty high on the dumb list.


Are you referring to the 5" vertical Engagement Range? If so, you've misunderstood, unless you're talking about pretty much deep-striking directly underneath a unit that's on a floor above.
Engagement Range is within 1" horizontally and 5" vertically. If it wasn't both, you could be considered to be in Engagement Range of a unit one floor up, halfway across the battlefield.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Tanks can now fire cannons at infantry attacking them as long as they don.t have the blast effect.

I've never watched a whole episode of Firefly. 
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
less than 9" charges from deep strike if there are elevation differences, are pretty high on the dumb list.


Are you referring to the 5" vertical Engagement Range? If so, you've misunderstood, unless you're talking about pretty much deep-striking directly underneath a unit that's on a floor above.
Engagement Range is within 1" horizontally and 5" vertically. If it wasn't both, you could be considered to be in Engagement Range of a unit one floor up, halfway across the battlefield.


No, I'm referring to geometry. You know, math. The hypotenuse of a triangle is longer than either other side. If you have a unit 5" off the ground, instead of needing a 9" charge from DS to get within engagement range, you now only need a 7" charge. If they're 3" up, it's an 8" charge.

It's pretty much the definition of silly that it's easier to charge a unit that's up high on a ruin than if it was on the ground floor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/03 22:17:07


 
   
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Gig Harbor, WA

My understanding is that you have to be within 1” horizontally and 5” vertically to be inEngagement range.

Per page 11 of the core rules you have to count vertical distance change as part of up ur movement. If you run down a significant hillside, you count the up down movement too. I
   
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Stevenage, UK

Ohhhh, I see what you mean. It's not really that the charge and Engagement Range itself is broken - it's that Deep Striking requirements don't take that 5" into account when you calculate the 9" distance you need to be away.

(added) ok, I made a thing. You can see how the legal Deep Strike distance is met with the hypotenuse, but this results in a smaller minimum charge distance. That IS a bit silly.
[Thumb - lookit.png]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 22:37:08


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
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You only count vertical distance if you're actually going vertically.

If you DS your unit onto the ground and charge something 9" away from you that's 5" up in the air, you only need a 7" charge to get to within 1" horizontally and 5" vertically. This is just math.

edit: Okay you figured it out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/03 22:29:09


 
   
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Gig Harbor, WA

You wouldn’t measure the 9” horizontally? That’s how we’ve always played it. Maybe we were playing it wrong.
   
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 argonak wrote:
You wouldn’t measure the 9” horizontally? That’s how we’ve always played it. Maybe we were playing it wrong.


No, because that's not what the DS rules say. The DS rules say 9" away, not 9" away horizontally.
   
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 carldooley wrote:
I'll start. I realized that I can field a Superheavy detachment with household traits, in a 500 point Combat Patrol. (not that I would )


Guardsman Timmy and his bayonet can stab somebody in the 2nd or sometimes even 3rd story window through 2 floors.

(But with all the reach to stab up two floors, he can barely reach past a guy in front of him to stab)

Engagement range is pretty borked.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
My personal favorite bit of 9th ed specific rules comedy so far is the rule that says NO RULES are in effect when a unit is in a transport, because it has hilarious effects when combined with open-topped transports.

The vehicle upgrade "Splinter Racks" for Drukhari which grants a bonus to the unit firing from inside the vehicle, RAW does nothing. As does the Kabal trait that grants a reroll if a FLAYED SKULL unit attacks from within a transport.



Thats actually wrong, it has been faq from other places that rules effect things in open top, RAW is ambiguous but its not intended and the FAQs shows this. Its already been discussed to death, go to YMDC and other forums/places to find the faqs b.c i'm not copying it all for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some of the Fortifications blocks characters b.c of LoS! rule, but this works for both players (depending on who is in control of it at the time), so your own Fort can block for their character.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/04 03:26:33


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Grav devastator pods. They aren't 9th, but I believe they got even cheaper. Such a cheesy move.
   
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