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Tried this once and it was derailed beyond recovery. Right now a lot of us can't play the game. But it's still a hobby we like to work over in our minds. If you'd like to do something other than rage over the latest SM unit, or Rage over the rage over the the latest SM unit but still want to get some sort of mileage out of the hobby feel welcome to try the below challenge:

Here's the Premise: You have gotten your dream job as a GW play tester. If that's not your dream job, please pretend it is. You will live and work in the GW studio for a year. You have access to the Studio armies. They're all painted and magnetized up the ying yang. In fact even the paint is magnetized so you can swap sub-factions at a whim. A giant machine will assemble your army and have it WYSIWYG waiting for you at the table when you hit Print on the list builder. You have been assigned to the Crusade/Power Level division. Even if you prefer points, you're on the power level team. You have access to 3 or more of every unit with every possible combination of wargear, all WYSIWYG and so on. After the initial candy store effect wears off and you quit loading up on Forgeworld you can't afford yourself, or whatever other regrets you have in your own army - what changes do you make?

A Box Art tactical squad is ~85% of an Intercessor squad's points, but 70% of their Power Level. (or at least it was)

That same Tac Squad with an Apothecary is 112.5% of the points, and 100% of the Power Level (or at least it was)

It looks like GW equates 1 PL at about 20 Points. Obviously this fluctuates, that's kind of the whole point of this "game" or "challenge".

Some Units give you "free" points because either their optional but still optimal weapon would cost you enough points to jump a power level, or several units together just have a base points cost slightly higher than their power level i.e. the 4 PL 85 or 3PL 65 etc point models.

Some units cost you extra power level - the 7PL 125-130 point transport. The 19PL vs 360 point Tank Transport. As if that thing needed to be made even worse.

If you're bored, start looking through your codex PL/Point values (not the updated ones which probably better go with the new codex rules whatever they may be) Play with some list creation, what forgotten units, or what units that are the first ones you trim suddenly make the cut? Which ones that made the cut no longer do?


For some more fun:
Look at the lists you made in the past and compare their PL vs points total. (Another reason to compare Codex vs updated to keep it apples and apples) I was just looking and I was shocked to see PL ranges for a Strike Force are 100-200 while points were 1001 to 2000. How many of you can make a 200PL and 2,000 point army? Is it any good?

For Extra Credit:
If you're playng a casual game, and make the points limit 2000 points, how many of you call 2001 (or 2002, 3, 4 etc.) close enough? is 101 PL close enough to 100?

Breton wrote:

For Extra Credit:
If you're playng a casual game, and make the points limit 2000 points, how many of you call 2001 (or 2002, 3, 4 etc.) close enough? is 101 PL close enough to 100?

No, it is not "close enough".
The limit, the maximum you had to spend, was x. As in make a list & DO NOT EXCEED X. It's a simple instruction. Why did you not follow it?

Honestly, I'm not into PL enough to write anything of high detail.

I think the biggest issue people have with PL is free upgrades. I'd probably add change all PL to represent the base costs of a unit and have "upgrade packages" to add up to X items from <cheap upgrade list> or Y items from <expensive upgrade list> for 1 PL.

As for the 100 vs 101 - especially with newer armies that have lots of mono-configuration models you sometimes have to rework half your list because there isn't just some model or upgrade you can knock off to go under the limit. Personally, I allow anything that is up to 2005 points, unless I find an upgrade in the list they can take out instead. As for PL though? 1 PL is quite a lot, so I'd not allow my opponent to go over.

Breton wrote:If you're playng a casual game, and make the points limit 2000 points, how many of you call 2001 (or 2002, 3, 4 etc.) close enough? is 101 PL close enough to 100?

Depends what's been taken.
If a 1 point upgrade takes them over the points limit, then that should be considered to be dropped. But if an army of only barebones units and equipment goes over by 1 point, I'm less likely to call it out.

As for mismatched PL, I simply give the person with less PL the underdog rule using the Open War deck or give them first turn. Basically means that in the case of a draw, they get the win, might get a bonus like "at the start of the player turn, you may pick one unit to regain D3 Wounds" or "if your Warlord is killed, all units in the rest of your army get XYZ", or, they get the obvious first turn advantage.

Is it perfectly balanced? No. But, considering I'm playing PL anyway, was perfect balance really part of my game plan?

ccs wrote:

Breton wrote:

For Extra Credit:
If you're playng a casual game, and make the points limit 2000 points, how many of you call 2001 (or 2002, 3, 4 etc.) close enough? is 101 PL close enough to 100?

No, it is not "close enough".
The limit, the maximum you had to spend, was x. As in make a list & DO NOT EXCEED X. It's a simple instruction. Why did you not follow it?

Just for everyone's store of information, here in the USA, where "Extra Credit" in schools is sometimes a thing, as a pretty standard rule you don't get ANY points for extra credit unless you do all of the other work FIRST. So, like, you can't just answer the extra credit question and grab a few points.

Why is there not a dad-style finger pistols emoji? Anyway, imagine me shooting you finger pistols here...

My points versus PL are normally a little high, but nothing gross. I don't optimize any differently than I do normally with points... but being that PL is an estimation, there's bound to be some swing one way or the other.

Here's the really cool thing about PL: it swings both ways. Sometimes I am at a granular advantage with my Adepta Sororitas, provided my opponent doesn't over-optimize and gain advantage. Other times I am at a disadvantage because 5 spectres are still 10 PL, even though they're 135 points... bewildering conversion there, GW.

We used to be staunchly against PL, too, since it encourages "optimization" - but then realized we enjoyed it a bit when the list building isn't fidgeting and fighting over getting in the combi-flamer my superior has modeled. It is just pluck and play, which also takes a lot of the stress off of the game up front.

I think the original post is way too concerned with granularity and ensuring 2000 points plays against 2000 points on the button... but it'll rarely ever happen in PL. And not like 2000 points of SM is the same as 2000 points of GSC right now But that's a different topic.

Like if anything... PL (primarily through Crusade) has lightened the pregame grind of selecting and equipping the army so we can get into the game and just enjoy a Saturday afternoon. It fits our intentions. We're not even spot on with it either... 52 vs 53 PL is just fine for the game. But... you'll notice it is a lot easier to adopt that position when the trappings of "gotta win" falls away. If you're wrapped up in that mentality, the definitely stay in points... for you and your opponent's sake (not even being snarky here, both players can abuse PL if they set out to do it, just like they abuse cost-effective units with points).

 Jidmah wrote:

I think the biggest issue people have with PL is free upgrades.

Which is frankly a major misconception. PL has upgrade costs baked into the unit cost already, it's why units with extensive wargear lists are universally higher cost in PL than those without the same customization relative to their points costs. There are only a handful of units that can go so flat out furious on the upgrades that they overcome the inherent conversion formula.

Being forced to live where you work sounds like those horror stories, my uncle told about working in the UK. If possible it is a thing to be avoided.

There are few things worse then you being forced to sleep at work, and your boss turning off the heating, water and electricity for the night durning winter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

I think the biggest issue people have with PL is free upgrades.

Which is frankly a major misconception. PL has upgrade costs baked into the unit cost already, it's why units with extensive wargear lists are universally higher cost in PL than those without the same customization relative to their points costs. There are only a handful of units that can go so flat out furious on the upgrades that they overcome the inherent conversion formula.

Awesome and then GW points your squad if each member was armed with a nemezis thunder hammer or max 4pts falchions, when the good way to play is to leave the squad unupgraded. And suddenly your elite army costs even more in PL, then it does in normal points.

Also, to the original topic:

The inherent flaw in PL vs Points is units that are so flexible that they can equip everything from boltguns to multi-meltas. And 0 to X of them can do so.

That gives you swingy units that can cost anywhere from like 60 points to over 200. In particular, I'm thinking of things like Retributors. I think a squad of base Rets is 60 points... but if you give them 4 MM and a Combi-melta, and 2 cherubs... the squad balloons to 160ish? How do you abstract that into a singular number?

I think the Havocs were done a bit better. Each upgradable Havoc starts with a Heavy Bolter, so the variance is a lot less pronounced... but still present. That Ret squad is worth anywhere from 3PL to 8PL, depending on loadout, where the havocs clock in at 130 to 165... or 6.5 to 8.25 PL. And... the Rets come in at 6PL vs the Havoc's 7.

Primaris has definitely kicked off the swingy units of old going away... making PL a bit more reliable, and many other armies don't have equip-heavy options that can totally cheese PL. But those outliers are still present, and they become much more attractive in PL games. To fix it? I think situations where you assume a minimal loadout is better defined up front like it is with the Havocs. That'll go a long way to eliminating the variance in units like Boltgun Retributors vs. Multi-melta ones.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

I think the biggest issue people have with PL is free upgrades.

Which is frankly a major misconception. PL has upgrade costs baked into the unit cost already, it's why units with extensive wargear lists are universally higher cost in PL than those without the same customization relative to their points costs. There are only a handful of units that can go so flat out furious on the upgrades that they overcome the inherent conversion formula.

This was just fairly short summary, obviously. The thing is that this formula simply doesn't work out for certain highly customizable units with a wide array of non-equal choices.

Let's take nobz, for example, 10 of the are currently 12 PL.

Let's say you still have a bunch of AOBR nobz, those are 17 points per models, so 170 for 10

There is a good reason to just equip them all with slugga and big choppa and call it a day. Fluffy, seen that way in the DoW games, big choppas look awesome and actually a decent unit. Point costs 22 points per model, so 220 for one unit, 50 points of gear

In a regular PL game, you just pick whatever nobz as WYSIWYG and end up with 3 PK, 2 BC, a killsaws, a power stabba and three kombi-weapons - IIRC, that's roughly the content of one box of nobz. That's 90 points of gear for 260 points. Slightly above the 1PL=20 points conversion rate, but not optimized, so who cares.

In the scenario above, I could just give ever nob a combi-skorcha and a killsaw, and pile cybork on top because why wouldn't I? Now we are talking about a vicious shooting and combat unit for 430 points, with 250 points of gear

The difference between the 430 points nobz and the 170 points nobz is simply too big to put them both at 12 PL.
Therefore, I would just put nobz at 8-9 PL and then add 1 PL for every X weapons you add.

 Jidmah wrote:

This was just fairly short summary, obviously. The thing is that this formula simply doesn't work out for certain highly customizable units with a wide array of non-equal choices.

I play primarily Veteran focused Deathwatch and Crisis Suit based Tau. I'm acutely aware of the how bad the PL system goes wrong when its wrong. But the notion that it allows across the board free upgrades is simply not accurate, and is one of the biggest myths in this entire scenario.

Upgrades in the PL system are, with a few exceptions, free.

Even if the base costs of units with upgrades are higher to compensate, the upgrades itself are still free.

 Jidmah wrote:
Upgrades in the PL system are, with a few exceptions, free.

Even if the base costs of units with upgrades are higher to compensate, the upgrades itself are still free.

You've already paid for it at the unit level. That doesnt make it free when you get around to adding it at the model level.

If it wasnt, then every PL value would be the cost of the basic body and their default wargear. But we both know that isnt how the system works.

Just out of curiosity... since they seem to get granular in PL in regards to specific things (adding extra models, giving wings to a daemon prince)... what would you think of something like:

Up to two models in this unit can replace their boltgun with a weapon from the Heavy Weapons list for +1 PL, or up to 4 may do so for +2 PL?

I think outright charging +1 PL for some upgrades would be too much... and I fear for the fate of Crisis suits getting charged +1 PL per system. But I could also see a world where they are +1 PL for 1 or 2 weapons or systems, and +2 for 3. I think it could even work for Commanders.

It would certainly be fair, wouldn't it? My above example of Rets would be charged 8 PL instead of 6 for have 4 MM. I think Havocs would be fine up front, since they already have Heavy Bolters built into their PL profile. But charging for upgrades like that may ease the burden for some units that can be VERY custom.

If I buy a warboss for 4 PL and give him a klaw, and he is still 4 PL that klaw was free.

If I buy a warboss for 5 PL and give him a klaw, and he is still 5 PL, that klaw remains a free upgrade.

if I buy a daemon prince for 8 PL wings, he is 9 PL that upgrade was not free.

I get what you are saying, but upgrades that don't cost anything are per definition free. 0PL = free.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Just out of curiosity... since they seem to get granular in PL in regards to specific things (adding extra models, giving wings to a daemon prince)... what would you think of something like:

Up to two models in this unit can replace their boltgun with a weapon from the Heavy Weapons list for +1 PL, or up to 4 may do so for +2 PL?

I think outright charging +1 PL for some upgrades would be too much... and I fear for the fate of Crisis suits getting charged +1 PL per system. But I could also see a world where they are +1 PL for 1 or 2 weapons or systems, and +2 for 3. I think it could even work for Commanders.

It would certainly be fair, wouldn't it? My above example of Rets would be charged 8 PL instead of 6 for have 4 MM. I think Havocs would be fine up front, since they already have Heavy Bolters built into their PL profile. But charging for upgrades like that may ease the burden for some units that can be VERY custom.

I agree, this would be a much better solution.

Breton wrote:
Tried this once and it was derailed beyond recovery. Right now a lot of us can't play the game. But it's still a hobby we like to work over in our minds. If you'd like to do something other than rage over the latest SM unit, or Rage over the rage over the the latest SM unit but still want to get some sort of mileage out of the hobby feel welcome to try the below challenge:

Sorry about the derail buddy, I will try to make a better answer for this thread

Here's the Premise: You have gotten your dream job as a GW play tester. If that's not your dream job, please pretend it is. You will live and work in the GW studio for a year. You have access to the Studio armies. They're all painted and magnetized up the ying yang. In fact even the paint is magnetized so you can swap sub-factions at a whim. A giant machine will assemble your army and have it WYSIWYG waiting for you at the table when you hit Print on the list builder. You have been assigned to the Crusade/Power Level division. Even if you prefer points, you're on the power level team. You have access to 3 or more of every unit with every possible combination of wargear, all WYSIWYG and so on. After the initial candy store effect wears off and you quit loading up on Forgeworld you can't afford yourself, or whatever other regrets you have in your own army - what changes do you make?

It pretty much is my dream job, living in the studio maybe not so much, will I get to speak to family and friends on the phone? TTS pretty much affords me this freedom today so this doesn't have to be some magical fantasy land. What changes have I made? Well all of them! I have played with every Necron unit, spammed them at least once and usually several times, I have fought Knight armies with a pair of Titanic Seraptek Constructs, faced newbies with a swarm of Canoptek Spyders. As a playtester I believe it would be my job not just to try out the things I don't have, but to try out everything and see what works and what does not, PL has some limitations so I if I was just let loose I would probably focus mostly on core gameplay concepts rather than finding out whether meltaguns or gravguns are more effective, one thing I could help with would be whether the fantasy of different weapons is being sold by the rules. A good example is the AM Leman Russ Vanquisher which is supposed to be the anti-tank version but it's really just the bad version because of how the math works out, now Vanquishers could still be competitive with a low enough pts cost, but as a PL tester I can focus on whether it feels good that a Vanquisher does less damage than a battle cannon against a heavy tank. I don't have regrets about my real life collection really, it doesn't have everything that I want, but I think that's part of the fun as well, what is a stamp collector to do when he has collected all the stamps? What PL changes would I recommend to the writers? It seems like GW have moved things in the right direction with the updates they have put out, it's hard to judge balance when you don't have an anchorpoint, I think it would be important for GW to make an anchorpoint of balance to determine whether something is above or below the power curve. With most Necron units there are sure to be both weaker and stronger units at those same power levels, so how do I judge whether the unit needs a PL reduction or increase? If I come across some particularly strong units I might feel my otherwise perfectly balanced units need to be cheaper or vice versa.

If you're playng a casual game, and make the points limit 2000 points, how many of you call 2001 (or 2002, 3, 4 etc.) close enough? is 101 PL close enough to 100?

Anything more than 2000 is breaking the rules, I have unintentionally brought over and far under the agreed-upon pts limit when I scrawled my lists on the backs of my maths tests, but if someone asks me if they can bring a couple of extra pts I will always say no, making a list is as much about what you need to leave out as what you are allowed to bring and you will survive with a unit of 29 Ork Boyz instead of 30 or with a flamer instead of a meltagun on your Infantry Squad. Same thing with PL and I would be a little cross if I found out someone cheated and intentionally brought more. But someone making a mistake in the math department and bringing an extra squad or something? That's totally fine, I'll survive if you bring another 200 pts in this game or that game, everyone makes mistakes, the intent is what matters most to me, because if your intent was to have an honest 2000 pt game then we are more likely to have an honest 2000 pt game next time, even if you unintentionally cheated this time, but if you feel like the rules are beneath you and you always bring 2, 20 or 200 pts extra then I am going to get taken advantage of as often as you like.

Wow, this time the thread didn't even go one response before being completely derailed.

This is why people don't like you, internet.

I don't imagine anything wins more in PL than Vanguard Veterans. Each guy can take a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

I love these threads, though. They really get to the point of who to put on ignore fast.

 Jidmah wrote:

I get what you are saying, but upgrades that don't cost anything are per definition free. 0PL = free.

This is incredibly shortsighted. PL costs for wargear are paid at the unit level. You pay them before you even get the option of taking additional items, abilities or additions. If you then elect to take the items you've already paid for, that does not make them free.

This is like arguing that when a restaurant factors tax into the cost of a meal, then doesnt explicitly add tax to your bill, that you werent charged tax.

How about sticking to the actual game instead of making false analogies involving restaurants?

I don't know about the US, but in Germany, if a restaurant doesn't explicitly add tax to the bill, they are committing tax fraud.

However, if you can go to a restaurant and you can eat any number of bread sticks, those bread sticks are free, even if their cost is factored into the meal.
Same goes for free parking in front of the restaurant.

 Jidmah wrote:
How about sticking to the actual game instead of making false analogies involving restaurants?

How about you stop continuing to feed a fallacy that's entirely wrong?

 Jidmah wrote:

I don't know about the US, but in Germany, if a restaurant doesn't explicitly add tax to the bill, they are committing tax fraud.

Thank you for completely realizing the error of your own argument. One can add tax into the bill and present those prices to a customer as the final cost. Not charging a second time isnt fraud, anymore than not charging for wargear twice in the PL system isnt making those wargear options free.

 Jidmah wrote:

However, if you can go to a restaurant and you can eat any number of bread sticks, those bread sticks are free, even if their cost is factored into the meal.
Same goes for free parking in front of the restaurant.

It really is adorable that you think something you have to pay for is actually free. You dont get those breadsticks if you dont pay for the meal.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Wow, this time the thread didn't even go one response before being completely derailed.

How exactly is my directly answering a question that was asked derailing the thread?

Purifying Tempest wrote:
My points versus PL are normally a little high, but nothing gross. I don't optimize any differently than I do normally with points... but being that PL is an estimation, there's bound to be some swing one way or the other.

Here's the really cool thing about PL: it swings both ways. Sometimes I am at a granular advantage with my Adepta Sororitas, provided my opponent doesn't over-optimize and gain advantage. Other times I am at a disadvantage because 5 spectres are still 10 PL, even though they're 135 points... bewildering conversion there, GW.

That's what made me pose the original question. Noticing some of these 1PL = 20 points deviations myself. Squad A is 5PL and add X more for 5PL more. Squad B is 4PL for X guys, and 3PL for X more saves you 30% instead of 10-15%. All of a sudden you could take an old marine Apothecary with an entire 10 man oldmarine Tactical squad compared to a 10 man Primaris infiltrator that included an almost Apothecary. Now that uses up an Elites slot for a fairly Meh upgrade all in all - which may or may not be a big deal - but when you do it twice instead of an old Marine Apothecary you're taking something 6PL for "free" and now we're talking something like a Beatstick Captain, several different Dreads, a Dev Squad, a Vindicator... 6PL covers a lot of ground.

We used to be staunchly against PL, too, since it encourages "optimization" - but then realized we enjoyed it a bit when the list building isn't fidgeting and fighting over getting in the combi-flamer my superior has modeled. It is just pluck and play, which also takes a lot of the stress off of the game up front.

As mentioned I'm not asking about the pros and cons of Points vs PL. That's what completely derailed the thread the first time I proposed this topic. I'm merely suggesting that - Having noticed different mechanics in Points and PL pricing - if you took a fresh look at your codex. As if it had been released and today was Day 1. As if you didn't have a single model or if you had every model ever,. As if you have never made a list before, or you'd made every list ever what catches your eye if you were to make an entirely new list you could field with zero modelling effort yet still satisfy whatever personal standards for your army from WYSIWYG to paint quality, to whatever, what units/choices suddenly jump out at you? And I then provided some examples. Not only are the first 5 Tactical marines cheaper, but the second five and even further discounted. With points you may take two 5 man squads to get yourself two sergeants with a bonus attack and hidden power fists if that's your thing. This would bump your cost ~ 20-40 points. If you only took the one squad, and a full squad that would save you 3 PL which is roughly equivalent to ~60 points and still give you the hidden powerfist, plus the special and heavy for free. I'm pretty sure this sort of observation justifies re-examining Tacs vs Intercessors vs Infiltrators with an eye towards Cost Benefit Analysis. I'm not sure - and thus asked the question - if the answer changes or if it's just worth taking a look. I threw it open to everyone because we all pretty much can't play right now, and we'd all like to have something fun to do with the hobby. There's no ulterior motive. There's no secret agenda. Its just a little game we can all play - well maybe not Knights - with our own codex that can be fun instead of complaining about the newest release being overpower and how far behind your XYZ unit is now.

I think the original post is way too concerned with granularity and ensuring 2000 points plays against 2000 points on the button... but it'll rarely ever happen in PL. And not like 2000 points of SM is the same as 2000 points of GSC right now But that's a different topic.

Like if anything... PL (primarily through Crusade) has lightened the pregame grind of selecting and equipping the army so we can get into the game and just enjoy a Saturday afternoon. It fits our intentions. We're not even spot on with it either... 52 vs 53 PL is just fine for the game. But... you'll notice it is a lot easier to adopt that position when the trappings of "gotta win" falls away. If you're wrapped up in that mentality, the definitely stay in points... for you and your opponent's sake (not even being snarky here, both players can abuse PL if they set out to do it, just like they abuse cost-effective units with points).

I am the original poster, and "granularity" has nothing to do with playing at exactly 2,000 points.
I'm not concerned with "forcing" people to play at exactly 2,000. I asked a question in such a way that the people who AREN'T so inclined wouldn't feel the need to answer that they don't give people the extra point or two. The relevant question has been quoted below with some emphasis and the implied subject of the final question added.

If you're playng a casual game, and make the points limit 2000 points, how many of you call 2001 (or 2002, 3, 4 etc.) close enough? (For Those Of You Who Do) is 101 PL close enough to 100?

I don't know how to say this. There is no Secret Agenda here.

I'm bored with not being able to play.
I looked at my codex.
The Crusade thing was kind of in the back of my mind.
I started looking at the Power Level entries and upgrades.
I noticed things CAN get a little weird the further down the Power Level Decision Tree you go with some units.
I wondered by how much.
I took a quick glance.
I noticed it can add up quckly.
I'm still chewing on which adds and subtractions swing decisions
I assumed some other people might be bored too.
I invited them, and you, to exercise their brain the same way.

Later on, I noticed Strike Force sized games are 1001-2000 points and 100 to 200 PL.
That really put my brain on the hamster wheel.
If Points to PL is about 20:1 how does one get 200 PL out of 2,000 points - Especially when - as people assume - 100 PL is going to be about the same 20:1 2000 points or even more in models because of the "Free upgrades" on that same sized board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to clarify that last part - Lets assume Tacticals and Intercessors are the exact same points costs before upgrades. They're not but it's close enough for the example and they're familiar enough that getting bogged down with specifics of a minor difference would just confuse things:

So we assume Tacs and Intercessors are X points.
10 Tacs are 7PL 10 Intercessors are 10PL.


That's a 30% savings in PL. IF we assume that's standard, or even best case - 100PL bottoms out at 1400 points and goes up from there. 200 PL thus bottoms out at 2800 points. Bottoms Out means the lowest points (assume you max out at a roughly 30% discount) a PL would translate to.

Thus the question about what other people's PL to Points on previously made lists came out to. Was this GW not paying attention? The next step in a slow move to pack even more models on even smaller tables? Are some of our assumptions wrong? Does one army or army style etc get a huge boost out of PL and we haven't noticed? There's something there, though it's probably just GW not paying attention.

Sterling191 wrote:
It really is adorable that you think something you have to pay for is actually free. You dont get those breadsticks if you dont pay for the meal.

Sorry, if you don't want to understand the problem, I can't help you. I suggest picking up a dictionary and looking up "free".

Sometimes the cost is baked in, sometimes the cost is not.

5 Tacs can have a hidden fist and a special or Heavy for 4PL, for 3 more PL they get 5 more guys and the other of the special or Heavy.

5 Devs can have a hidden fist, and 4 Heavies for 6PL, they get another 5 for 3PL that can't do anything but combat squad with the Sgt to get his fist on the front lines.

The Special/Heavy you get for the second 3PL is almost definitely free.
The Hidden Fist may or may not be baked in, but if it is, the initial Special/Heavy for Tacs is probably not.
The 4 Heavies for Devs probably is almost certainly baked into the Devs at a discount. 2PL (assuming a baked in fist for the 4)= 40 points or about 4 of the cheapest heavy, if the Fist is free, 1 PL is a 20 point heavy, and 3 PL is 4 15 Point Heavies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect if we looked the costs that are baked in are usually either compulsor (You must choose one of the following, it starts with this and may be upgraded to this but it always has something from this list) or Duh! The whole purpose is to take these four things... kind of options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vanguard Vets are 6/7/12/14 PL depending on PL specific upgrades.

Without any weapons options or the PL priced jump packs they are almost across the board equal to Assault Intercessors priced at 5/10. VV have +1LD and use an Elites Slot.

Unless +1LD or FOC slot is far more potent than borne out comparing other units like Tacs to Scouts, or Tacs to Devs etc, there is a small baked in upcharge for VV weapons options. But the discount is sizable

I think the OP's question really gets to the problem of the power level system, not salvaging it. The goal is to look for the largest discrepancies.

Personally, since there's a pretty easy PL:point ratio, it becomes a question of how they calculate variable costs. I haven't kept track of if it's still true or not, but what initially discouraged me from PL was SM scouts: with all the bells and whistles, IIRC you get a very good deal. Camo, sniper rifles, a decent heavy weapon, a sergeant with more gear than any scout kit has modeled. Except there's a place for running just bolter goons and maybe a heavy weapon, or maybe you have the vanilla/classic BP+CCW box and so paying for a HB is foolish in a melee squad so they're not upgraded and WYSIWYG have no camo to upgrade.

Scouts are now either a bit underpriced or comically overpriced, and PL has no answer to the other build. Without a system that takes into account different and non-equivalent ways of playing a unit, PL is just eyeballing it, and I think only suited for the most casual of playing (throw down lists quickly between friends) and not at all competitive play (which will devolve into who has the most outlandish upgrades that they don't pay (enough) for). With "free" upgrades, you either underpay for what you take or overpay for what you don't.

I'm all for simplifying points and believe that the nuances aren't esp. productive so could be reduced to something like 6 points for a unit, 1 for a special weapon, 2 for a heavy, but as written I think all they do is give a decent idea of what the unit might cost when starting to build a list, if you haven't memorized those numbers already.