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Hi everybody,

The following is nothing I currently have in my project log but more something I might kitbash together one day. As we know current militaries have various "special vehicles" beside just tanks, APCs and IFVs. While IG has kind of a repair vehilce with the trojan, others don't really make that much sense within the time and space frame of a WH40k game (bridgelayers, Trenchdiggers, MedEvac). But what I'm kind of missing and what would fit in my opinion would be a minelayer like the british "Shielder" or the german "Skorpion".

Therefore I wanted to do a quick brainstorming how this could be transfered to the tabletop.

Looking at comparable units I found the Tyranid Sporocyst that comes pretty close. 79 points (I don't know if that changed in 9th) for a M0 T6 W12 4+ immobile model with 5 Deathspitters that can spawn (without a roll) 3 spore mines or one mucolid spore that can each move 3''.

So transfering this to guard I would assume we base it on the Chimera chassis with reduced toughness that the Basilisk and Hydra use so:
M12, T6, W11, Sv3+ with the usual hull Bolter/Heavy Flamer => I would roughly approximate this at 40 points in 9th (+ the 15 for the hull weapon)

The mentioned modern minelayers really "throw" their mines, but not very far, so I would assume the minethrower weapons module to have 8'' range and throw (following the Tyranid unit) either 1 anti tank or 3 anti personel mines, that are then immobile.
Rules:
anti-tank mine:

An Anti-Tank mine explodes if it is within 3" of any an enemy vehicle or Monster at the end of any Charge phase.(by it's normal move or charge move) but not in the turn it was laid. Each time an Anti tank mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts D3 mortal wound on the triggering vehicle, and on a 6 it inflicts D6 mortal wounds on that vehicle. The Anti-Tank Mine is then destroyed.

=> I assume IG vehicles can be fitted with an IFF keeping the mines from doing friendly fire. I also changed the Mucoid spore's rule slightly that the damage is done to a single vehicle not the unit as that makes more sense for an AT mine

Anti personel mine:

An Anti-Personal mine explodes if it is within 3" of any Swarm, Infantry or Cavalry at the end of any Charge phase but not in the turn it was laid. Each time an Anti-Personell mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Anti-Personell Mine is then destroyed.

=> I don't think AP mines can be kept from friendly fire, therefore it triggers when something lighter than a vehicle/monster comes close
I would give this minelayer a cost of roughly 40-45 points.
So together with the hull weapon the whole package would be 100


Generally:
I'm struggling a bit to assess if this is stronger or weaker than the usual stuff like Basilisks, Manticors etc.
On the plus side:
- against enemy models with very good (inv)saves and high toughness average 1.92 MW to a vehicle or 3 x 1 MW to infantry should often be better than the usual artillery
- it adds the possibility to more or less block chokeholds in the terrain or at least tempt the other player to avoid them.

On the minus side:
- it's no direct damage, very short ranged and can be avoided by the other player.
- it's much worse than other artillery pieces against lower toughness and saves
- AP mines risk friendly fire

So what's your thoughts? Would this make sense and ~ 100 points be fair for that?

Cool concept. A few thoughts:

* The sporocyst doesn't see a ton of use. So even though it's a good idea to use it as a starting point for your mine-layer, it's also worth keeping in mind that something that matches the sporocyst in effectiveness might not be all that useful.

* Unless I'm misremembering, sporocysts can be deployed outside your deployment zone. Also, the spore mines themselves can move around. This means you're able to start putting spore mines near important locations starting on turn 1 and can also spread your mines out across a wider area (if your opponent doesn't kill them each turn for some reason). Your vehicle has to move into position to start tossing mines which your opponent can then walk around and avoid all game. Unless you're just sapping the heck out of one objective and making it impossible for either player to score unless they want to sacrifice a unit.

* You have that mine activation delay that limits its use quite a bit. Consider biovores. They generate the same spore mines that sporocysts do, but they lob theirs across the table and can even hit targets with their spore mines right away. Placing a spore mine is actually what happens when these guys miss. What I'm saying is you can probably ditch the delayed activation.

* Differentiating between infantry and tank mines further limits the usefulness of your sappers. It's one thing to have specialized mines, but making one type incapable of harming half the unit types that might walk over it seems too easy to play around.

* Having the mines detonate in the charge phase seems odd. I know you're using the spore mine wording, but this means that a unit can avoid a mine by advancing or charging across it at top speed.

Here are a few pitches on some tweaks you might consider:
* It sounds like your main interest in this is a modeling project, but how would you feel about simply letting players buy "mine tokens" as an elite or heavy support choice that get placed at the start of the deployment phase? As you yourself point out, you don't generally lay mines mid-combat; you lay them down before the battle starts.

* Instead of laying mines mid-battle, you could simply let each mine-layer included in your army let you put down mines during deployment. This gives you an excuse to do the modeling project but it also lets you get your mines out before the battle rather than trying to set them up mid-fight like the Demoman from TF2.

* What about treating the vehicle more like a squad of biovores? Let the tank catapult its mines at the enemy. Hits do damage similar to a biovore's spore mine launcher, and misses get placed as mines that activate a turn later. I could see the imperium launching a spread of mines indiscriminately across a general area rather than placing them with care and caution. Especially if that lets the sapper double as a mid-battle combatant with (in?)direct fire capabilities.

* Thoughts on letting units spend actions to remove mines? Against spore mines, the trick is to shoot them before they get close. You can't just lay a ton of them on an objective to deny it to the enemy. Your mines, while harder to deliver, can't currently be removed except via detonation. Making your opponent give up firepower and board presence to keep a mortal wound mine from going off in the middle of their gunline seems interesting.

Hey Wyldhunt,

thanks for the input, it was really helpful. First off: you are right, that I’m mostly interested in the modeling project and to add another unique vehicle to my collection. I’m mainly brainstorming because if I get to play sometime it would be nice to have a proposition ready for fair rules and point costs.

Now to your recommendations: I wasn’t aware of the biovore and you are right, that makes even more sense than the sporocyst. As far as I know the Skorpion indeed “throws” its mines instead of really laying them, but I did not find a number of the throwing range. According to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhMjsbGFgiA
(at around 3:48) I would guess it is comparable to a flamer, therefore the 8’’ range estimate, but 12’’ might be more in line with the new HF. (Interesting note: each of these “shots” lays 5 AT-mines, 600 in total for each vehicle). From this video I would also estimate that while it is risky, throwing mines after the battle already started is indeed possible. Also the mines are not “digged in” and not really camouflaged, so I assume one could normally shoot at them instead of needing some Kind of "action" to remove them.
Also I agree that the separation into anti-tank and anti-personel mine and their accompanying rules might be needlessly complicated. And I like the idea of “buying” mines for deployment in the deployment phase.

Therefore I give it another shot (the name "Lamassu" denotes a mythical creature with bull body, wings and human head that protects against evil, which fits a minelayer):

Lamassu Minelayer, 120 points
M12, WS6+, BS 4+, S6, T6, W11, A1, LD7, Sv3+,
Each minelayer is armed with 4 mine launchers* and one heavy bolter that can be switched for one heavy flamer.
Weapons:
Mine launcher (0 points): 12’’, Heavy 1, see abilities**
Abilities:
Explodes (on a 4+ for D3 MW in 6’’ range***)
Mine Launcher: each time a mine launcher hits the target, roll a D6. On a 1 it fails to inflict damage, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 MW, on a 6 it inflicts D3 MWs. If it misses the target, set up 1 Mine token (a flat 25mm base) within 6’’ of the target unit and more than 3’’ from any enemy model. (If the mine cannot be placed it is destroyed). This weapon can target units out of LoS, but cannot fire overwatch or target airborne units****
Prepared minefield:
For each Minelayer in your army, you can add up to 5 mine tokens and place them in the deployment phase. Mine tokens can be placed anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 18’’ away from the enemy deployment zone and any enemy models***** and more than 6’’ away from any objective marker******.

* it has the same shots as 4 Biovores (160 points) but ¼ the range and friendly fire is on after the mines are placed. So my rough estimate is 120 points before the obligatory bolter
** similar to the biovore, but shorter range, as it is not intended as artillery
*** like the hellhound
****a bit clunky, but while I could see this working against a tau battlesuit or a hovering Valkyrie it should not work against real aircraft
***** like the Ratlings
****** to keep you from piling them on objective markers

Mine token (5 points*, 25mm base)
M0, WS-, BS-, S1,T1,W1,A0,LD10, Sv7+
Abilities: Any model may move over the mine token with its base, if it wants to (rules for moving through model bases do not apply). If a model (except airborne models) moves over or gets into base contact with the mine during any phase, the mine explodes, roll a D6. On a 1 it fails to inflict damage, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 MW, on a 6 it inflicts D3 MWs.
Mine tokens can be shot at and destroyed as usual, but do not grant any victory points.

* note: friendly fire is on and they cannot move, so ½ the points than a spore mine?



Regarding the cost estimate:
I did some quick mathhammering, comparing the Lamassu (L) with the Basilisk (B), Manticore (M) and Wyvern (W) as more established pieces:
Against GEQ (T3/W1/Sv5+, # of dead models, ignoring blast)
B: 2, M: 3, W: 3.11, L: 2
Against MEQ (T4/W2/Sv3+, damage done)
B: 3.104, M: 3.889, W: 1.167, L: 2
Against tanks (T8, 3+)
B: 2.483 M: 3.111, W: 0.389, L: 2
So it seems at least the direct damage is within acceptable range. It’s worse against infantry (especially as it has no blast), and vehicles without an Inv. On the other hand even if it misses it does something (with the risk of friendly fire)
Following that I guess 135 points with the HB is roughly in the right ballpark?

That looks good to me. I'd be willing to play against that.

I have another thing for which I would like to brainstorm some rules and as it is another IG special I will add it here instead of opening a new topic.

As a kitbashing project I created this thingy here called the Hyppogryph:

For the WIP see here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/786984.page

so as you can see, the hull + propulsion is basically a 1:1:1 mix of Leman Russ, Chimera and Taurox, but the AA Array on top is not really better protected than a Hydra
=> I would propose the mean statline that matches the Hydra

The armament consists of a hull multimelta, a forward turret with two hot shot volley guns and an AA array consisting of 4 multilasers and 2 single use skystrike missiles. For the latter I would assume 5 points per missile similar to the hunter killer missile.
Running the math comparing the AA array with a Hydra (damage done by the Hydra (A), the Hyppogryph with both Missiles (B1) and the Hyppogryph only using the multilasers B2):
Against T7, W14, 3+, hard to hit (Valkyries and the like): A: 2, B1: 1.334, B2: 0.667
Against T6, W12, 4+ hard to hit (Dakkajets etc.): A: 3.556, B1: 2.611, B2: 1.5
Against T5, W3, 3+ (Tau Battlesuits): A: 3.556 (since damage does not spill more like 3), B1: 2.963, B2: 1.778
Against T3, W1, 3+ (Seraphims): A: 2.22, B1: 2.963 B2: 2.22 (unsaved wounds)
Against T3, W1, 6+ (Gargoyles): A: 4.44, B1: 6.667, B2: 5.556
So it's worse than the Hydra against anything flying above T3 and only better against T3 with bad saves.
=> I would assume the Hull+ AA Array should cost roughly the same as a Hydra+Hydrabattery, the worse performance "paying" for the option of adding the two HSVG. Also I don't see any sensible way to add track guards, a dozer ram or pintle weapons without getting in the way so I will exclude vehicle equipment generally

Therefore my propositon would be:

Hyppogryph AA-auxiliary vehicle (95 points)
M12, WS 6+, BS4+, S6, T6, W10, A3, LD7, Sv3+, degrades like a Hydra
This unit contains one model that is equipped with a Hyppogryph Quad-AA-Multilaser, a hull Multimelta and two Hot-shot-volley guns. It can further be equipped with up to two single use Skystrike missiles.
The hull Multimelta can be exchanged for a heavy bolter or heavy flamer.

Weapons:
Hyppogryph Quad-AA-Multilaser (0 points): 36'' Heavy 12, S6, AP0, d1, Add 1 to all hit rolls against units that can fly, substract 1 against any other unit
single use Skystrike Missile (5 points): 60'', Heavy 1, S7, AP-2, dD3, Add 1 to hit rolls against units that can fly, substract 1 against any other unit. Each of these missiles can only be fired once per battle
Hot shot volley gun (5 points): 24'', Heavy 4, S4, AP-2, d1
Multimelta (25 points): 24'', Heavy1, S8, AP-3, dD6, roll two dice for damage within half range and discard the lowest.

Abilities:
Explodes (d3 MW within 6'' on a 6+)
Smoke launchers

Keywords: Imperium, Astra Militarum, <Regiment>, Vehicle, Hyppogryph

Does that sound sensible? Or should it cost more?