Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The 10" deployment zones in the 40k GT missions caused a discussion about the Ares gunship. The Ares is over 10" longe and over 10" wide.

"11. DEPLOY ARMIES
The players alternate setting up their remaining units one at a time, starting with the Defender.
A player's models must be set up wholly within their deployment zone.
If one player finishes deploying all their units, their opponent then deploys the remainder of their units.

If a model from your army is so large that it cannot physically be set up wholly within your
deployment zone (i.e. the smallest dimension of that model is greater than the depth
of your deployment zone), it must be set up so that it is touching your battlefield edge.
In the first battle round, that model’s unit cannot do any of the following: make a Normal Move,
Advance, Fall Back, attempt to manifest or deny psychic powers, make any attacks with ranged weapons,
declare a charge, perform a Heroic Intervention, perform any actions or psychic actions.
Models in such units count as having moved a distance in inches equal to their Move (M) characteristic in their first Movement phase.
If the unit has a minimum Move characteristic, it counts as having moved its maximum Move characteristic.
If both players have units with abilities that allow them to be set up ‘after both armies have deployed, the players
must roll off after all other units have been set up and alternate setting up these units, starting with the winner."

The rule says: „A player's models must be set up wholly within their deployment zone. "

"Wholly within" is definied as „A model is wholly a specified distance if every part of its base (or hull) is within that distance“

Under „measuring distances“ it says
„Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. "

The Ares has a base, and no rule saying use the hull (like the calladius/pallas), and the base fits in the deployment zone.

Because it has a base, the base must simply be put inside the deployment zone.

While the rules for moving say no part of the model can cross the edge of the battlefield, I don't think the oversized deployment rule prohibits this.

Yes i think so too but when this came up the judge at the ITC tournament i went to on the last weekend ruled it as "it doesn't fit"

Judges exist to create house rules. House Rules gonna House Rule.

I don't see the issue here. While normally you would measure such things by the base, the GT rule specifically states "model" - and therefore overrides this for everything that follows.
"If a model from your army is so large that it cannot physically be set up wholly within your deployment zone (i.e. the smallest dimension of that model is greater than the depth of your deployment zone), it must be set up so that it is touching your battlefield edge."

So, you set it up so that the model is touching the edge, not the base - and you have to follow the restrictions for the first battle round as a result.

In this way, you are also still able to follow the rule about no part of the model being over the edge.

 Super Ready wrote:
I don't see the issue here. While normally you would measure such things by the base, the GT rule specifically states "model" - and therefore overrides this for everything that follows.
"If a model from your army is so large that it cannot physically be set up wholly within your deployment zone (i.e. the smallest dimension of that model is greater than the depth of your deployment zone), it must be set up so that it is touching your battlefield edge."

So, you set it up so that the model is touching the edge, not the base - and you have to follow the restrictions for the first battle round as a result.

In this way, you are also still able to follow the rule about no part of the model being over the edge.

Under „measuring distances“ it says
"If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance."

The bullet point makes it even more clear "Model wholly within = every part of the models base"

So for measuring, model only means the base (or hull) not the mini on the base. So when i mesaure how big the Ares is and what it's dimention are i measure the base and nothing else.

my answer was incorrect

It has a base that fits in the deployment zone = It fits.

Judges always get to make that call though, it's why theyre there.

 nordsturmking wrote:
Under „measuring distances“ it says
"If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance."
The bullet point makes it even more clear "Model wholly within = every part of the models base"
So for measuring, model only means the base (or hull) not the mini on the base. So when i mesaure how big the Ares is and what it's dimention are i measure the base and nothing else.

...fair point - I didn't realise the base ruling actually states that it basically replaces the word "model" where relevant.
So, we're left with a model whose base fits in the deployment zone - but not without the actual model going over the table edge.

In such a case, you're looking at irresistible force/immovable object, where you have two options:
- allow the model to sit where it goes over the edge of the deployment zone, or
- follow the rules given for what to do if it were the base that didn't fit.

The latter still makes more sense to me, but I can see the counter-argument - the only way to get around it is to either roll-off, or if you're actually at a tournament, ask for a formal decision. Hate to say it... but that's what you got...!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While the rules for moving say no part of the model can cross the edge of the battlefield, I don't think the oversized deployment rule prohibits this.

This is true... but leaves you with a fresh dilemma. If you deploy in this manner, you then don't have permission to move the model fully onto the board - unless you have some way to redeploy it, it must spend the entire game exactly stationary, not even pivoting. Because the rule says "nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield" - it doesn't specify from which side...

 Super Ready wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While the rules for moving say no part of the model can cross the edge of the battlefield, I don't think the oversized deployment rule prohibits this.

This is true... but leaves you with a fresh dilemma. If you deploy in this manner, you then don't have permission to move the model fully onto the board - unless you have some way to redeploy it, it must spend the entire game exactly stationary, not even pivoting. Because the rule says "nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield" - it doesn't specify from which side...

Agreed. GW at its finest!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While the rules for moving say no part of the model can cross the edge of the battlefield, I don't think the oversized deployment rule prohibits this.

This is true... but leaves you with a fresh dilemma. If you deploy in this manner, you then don't have permission to move the model fully onto the board - unless you have some way to redeploy it, it must spend the entire game exactly stationary, not even pivoting. Because the rule says "nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield" - it doesn't specify from which side...

Agreed. GW at its finest!

Not quite, you can not cross a line again if you are in the process of crossing it.

But symantics. so whatever.

 Super Ready wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
Under „measuring distances“ it says
"If a rule says it affects models that are ‘within’, then it applies so long as any part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance. If a rule says it affects models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of the model’s base (or hull) is within the specified distance."
The bullet point makes it even more clear "Model wholly within = every part of the models base"
So for measuring, model only means the base (or hull) not the mini on the base. So when i mesaure how big the Ares is and what it's dimention are i measure the base and nothing else.

...fair point - I didn't realise the base ruling actually states that it basically replaces the word "model" where relevant.
So, we're left with a model whose base fits in the deployment zone - but not without the actual model going over the table edge.

In such a case, you're looking at irresistible force/immovable object, where you have two options:
- allow the model to sit where it goes over the edge of the deployment zone, or
- follow the rules given for what to do if it were the base that didn't fit.

The latter still makes more sense to me, but I can see the counter-argument - the only way to get around it is to either roll-off, or if you're actually at a tournament, ask for a formal decision. Hate to say it... but that's what you got...!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
While the rules for moving say no part of the model can cross the edge of the battlefield, I don't think the oversized deployment rule prohibits this.

This is true... but leaves you with a fresh dilemma. If you deploy in this manner, you then don't have permission to move the model fully onto the board - unless you have some way to redeploy it, it must spend the entire game exactly stationary, not even pivoting. Because the rule says "nor can any part of that model (including its base) cross the edge of the battlefield" - it doesn't specify from which side...

The model doesn't need to go over the table edge, it can instead stick out in to the No mans land between deployment zones. This way the base is wholly within and no part of the model(including it's base) crosses the table edge.

.

That second line of the requirements, though...
"A player's models must be set up wholly within their deployment zone."
What follows is obviously supposed to cover edge cases where that's not possible, but the Ares manages to present an edge++ case that breaks even that.

Or, to put it another way - you have no permission to deploy into no-mans-land, so again you're stuck with:
- allow the model to sit where it goes over the edge of the deployment zone, or
- follow the rules given for what to do if it were the base that didn't fit.

 Super Ready wrote:
That second line of the requirements, though...
"A player's models must be set up wholly within their deployment zone."
What follows is obviously supposed to cover edge cases where that's not possible, but the Ares manages to present an edge++ case that breaks even that.

Or, to put it another way - you have no permission to deploy into no-mans-land, so again you're stuck with:
- allow the model to sit where it goes over the edge of the deployment zone, or
- follow the rules given for what to do if it were the base that didn't fit.

But with "a model being wholly within" applying to the base, then as long as the models base is wholly within the deployment zone and the model is not overhanging the edge of the table, then it's acceptable. As it has a base, everything except line of sight is taken to and from the base, so you're not going to gain any advantage from having your nose in no-mans land.

As far as I can tell, the only requirements are:

1: The base is wholly within the deployment zone
2: The model is not overhanging the board edge

Oh I see what you mean now! The model goes into no-mans-land, the base doesn't. Again, very specifically because the "wholly within" rule then states you go by the base. ...yes, that approach works to me.

So i guess that is settled then. thanks guys