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Hello! I was wondering if someone might be able to answer a question that I have? It's LotR related, but the answer might be in the Silmarillion.

When does a half-elf or person of partly elvish heritage decide to be immortal or mortal? Arwen decided when she was a 2901 years old. One could say "Yeah, I'm an elf" for most of their lives and possibly just get fed up with being immortal and then say "Nah, I'm mortal".

Is there a point of no return when deciding?

I suspect there isn't a specific age/time, but everyone who's done it has made the decision once and not gone back, so the point of no return is presumably "making the decision".

 Psionara wrote:
Hello! I was wondering if someone might be able to answer a question that I have? It's LotR related, but the answer might be in the Silmarillion.

When does a half-elf or person of partly elvish heritage decide to be immortal or mortal? Arwen decided when she was a 2901 years old. One could say "Yeah, I'm an elf" for most of their lives and possibly just get fed up with being immortal and then say "Nah, I'm mortal".

Is there a point of no return when deciding?

Before they're born. They're basically given the choice through spirtual means. Arwen didn't decide to give up being immortal, she simply decided to give up on living on Middle-Earth. She chose to lay down and die basically so she could pass through the Halls of Mandos and be reunited with Aragorn to wherever men are meant to pass on after death.

 Psionara wrote:
Hello! I was wondering if someone might be able to answer a question that I have? It's LotR related, but the answer might be in the Silmarillion.

When does a half-elf or person of partly elvish heritage decide to be immortal or mortal? Arwen decided when she was a 2901 years old. One could say "Yeah, I'm an elf" for most of their lives and possibly just get fed up with being immortal and then say "Nah, I'm mortal".

Is there a point of no return when deciding?

Point of fact, its not all elves, at least not by the time of the War of the Ring. After the War of Wrath (the cataclysmic event that ended the First Age), those of mixed Elven and Edain blood had to choose (at some point, it wasnt a "do it now or else" situation) between Elfkind or Men. Elrond's lineage specifically inherited this ability, which is why Arwen choosing mortality is "kind of a big deal" (tm) in the books (less so in the films). Other Elves born after the start of the Second Age would not have been able to do so, with the implication being that any mixed unions would not result in children.

I think that Half-Elves who have this choice actually don't count as one race or the other till they make the choice, but once taken it is retroactive and was always the case. Arwen, I think was when all was said and done, couldn't be considered one of the Elves because her spirit passed beyond the boundaries of the world. The only elf who canonically dies this way is Luthien, she alone among all the Firstborn has truly died and received the gift of Iluvatar for the Second born.

For that to be true, then we must consider that Arwen, and indeed all Half-Elves who choose to be human, were retroactively mortal instead of being Elves who can choose at some point to cease being elves and become humans.

It's special dispensation of the Valar, given to Luthien, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros.

Nurglitch wrote:
It's special dispensation of the Valar, given to Luthien, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros.

And their progeny

 lord marcus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
It's special dispensation of the Valar, given to Luthien, Eärendil, Elrond and Elros.

And their progeny

Nope, the children of Elros were definitely not given that dispensation as they were the kings of Numenor.

Yeah, seems like the choice was only for the children of Elrond. Maybe because the Gift of Illuvatar is compulsory and passed down your lineage.

Only a half-elf can choose. Arwen had fully elven blood, she did not become mortal really, she lived for as long as Aragorn lived, then she kicked the bucket.

 BaronVonReichspudding wrote:
Only a half-elf can choose. Arwen had fully elven blood, she did not become mortal really, she lived for as long as Aragorn lived, then she kicked the bucket.

The choice was only open to the descendants of Elves that saw the Two Trees, which included Thingol, even though he was part of the Moriquendi.

Recall that there were two human-elf unions, Beren + Luthien and Idril + Tuor. Elrond and Elros traced their descent from all of them, which is how the choice continued.

In addition, the children of Earendil were descendants of Melian, which imparted special grace.

Arwen was not only the child of Elrond, but also the granddaughter of Galadriel, who was the granddaughter of Finwe, thus only four generations removed of the founding High King of the Noldor. Finally, she was the last of her line, the Evenstar of her people. All of which contributed to her choice.

Because elves do not age, there is no chronological deadline, but instead the decision is linked to marriage and having children.

It is important to note that the Prince of Dol Amroth also had elvish blood, but because his ancestor was of the Moriquendi (who never saw the light of Aman), no such choice was offered to her descendants.

1) Threadomancy

2) The choice of mortality was given specifically to Earendil, Elwing, Elros, Elrond, and because Elrond chose immortality the choice was also given to his children. So yes, Arwen did have the choice. It definitely didn't apply to Thingol. He's an Elf, no choice.

The choice however isn't quite a specific deadline. I think it was more of a "When the time comes..." sort of thing, but nothing concrete that other people would have specific knowledge or influence over. Nor would it be something you could pospone or game the system.

I personally think those who were given the choice had, at the moment they had to make the choice, a remote audience with the Valar. A vision in an instant when their destiny was coming together and an answer was required.

Elrond, somewhat selfishly but out of sincere love, wished for all his children to make the same choice he did. Hence his reluctance to allow Aragorn and Arwen to marry. You can't really blame him, he remembers the pain of losing his brother to the choice afterall. Something few elves could truly understand.

But ultimately, Arwen did make her choice. And then she became human, fully. No longer to be counted among the Elves. This has to be the case because we know Arwen did not go to stay in the Halls of Mandos. She joined Aragorn in the Gift of Illuvatar.

If we take this, then combine it with what we know about Luthien. Tolkien wrote that among the Eldar, she alone has died indeed. All elves go to the Halls of Mandos to eventually be reincarnated. So even elves that are slain are never lost. While there is some sorrow if they are killed, all elves have this assurance that some day they'll all be in Valinor one way or the other.

If Arwen was an elf in the end, then there would not be the sorrow at her staying with Aragorn to live a mortal life. They'd be reunited again. But no, she chose to be human. So there was sorrow and a parting forever between her and her father.

''The choice was only open to the descendants of Elves that saw the Two Trees, which included Thingol, even though he was part of the Moriquendi.

Recall that there were two human-elf unions, Beren + Luthien and Idril + Tuor. Elrond and Elros traced their descent from all of them, which is how the choice continued.

In addition, the children of Earendil were descendants of Melian, which imparted special grace.

Arwen was not only the child of Elrond, but also the granddaughter of Galadriel, who was the granddaughter of Finwe, thus only four generations removed of the founding High King of the Noldor. Finally, she was the last of her line, the Evenstar of her people. All of which contributed to her choice.

Because elves do not age, there is no chronological deadline, but instead the decision is linked to marriage and having children.

It is important to note that the Prince of Dol Amroth also had elvish blood, but because his ancestor was of the Moriquendi (who never saw the light of Aman), no such choice was offered to her descendants.''

Off the cuff I'd say that is incorrect, with the extreme exception of Lúthien - who was half-Maia, and chose to share her husband Beren's mortal fate.

That choice was further given to the Half-Elven Eärendil and Elwing in Valinor. Eärendil left the choice to Elwing, and she chose (for both) to be counted among the Firstborn. Neither of them ever returned to mortal lends, at lest never set foot on them again.

Then their sons Elros and Elrond were allowed to (had to?) choose for themselves, with the well-known result. Apparently Elrond's children also had to choose, but their choice seemed to hinge on Elrond's presence in mortal lands (he had never lived anywhere else), so the choice seemed to boil down to accompanying him to the undying lands, or to become mortal by default - in the case of Elladan and Elrohir, that is; Arwen had made a similar choice as her paternal great-great-grandmother Lúthien. I never quite understood the bit about Elladan and Elrohir, to be honest.

 Grey Templar wrote:
2) The choice of mortality was given specifically to Earendil, Elwing, Elros, Elrond, and because Elrond chose immortality the choice was also given to his children. So yes, Arwen did have the choice. It definitely didn't apply to Thingol. He's an Elf, no choice.

That's not what I wrote. I was pointing out that merely having elvish blood did not offer one a chance to be elvish. The Prince of Dol Amroth has elvish blood, but never got a choice because their ancestor was Moriquendi.

Though Thingol dwelt in Middle Earth, he had seen the Light Before the Sun. That apparently mattered in some way.