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A debate has arisen about our favorite troop flamer order for catachans, the burn them out order debate.

Let's posit the catachans have 2 infantry units and a manticore that can target the bad guys, and two orders to pass to the infantry in question from a nearby company commander. They are supported by a scions drop troop that has no order nor short range, to keep it simple.
Unit A has a flamer and 8 lasguns and 1 laspistol and is 7 inches away.
Unit B has 9 lasguns and 1 laspistol and is 7 inches away
Unit C is in the same mailing zip code and is a manticore.
Unit D is a nearby scions tempest unit 23 inches away, which has 4 hotshotvolleyguns to fire.

Target is marines in cover that would normally grant +1 save to their saving throws, ie, their 3+ intercesser armor is now 3+ (-1 for cover) = 2+

Unit A is ordered "burn them out" and unit B is ordered "firstrankfiresecondrank fire".

Unit A (the ordered unit with the flamer) denies cover to the target when they fire, so the cover does not apply to the flamer (you pick that to be first effect) nor to the lasguns (separate weapons fired simultaneously, but resolved in the order you pick as simultaneous things are.

Unit B fires next. It is still the same phase so the target unit still does not recieve benefit of cover, and the order doesn't restrict this to just "from your flamer" or "from your first unit."

Unit C fires next. It is the same phase and the order's effect is unaffected by any line of sight effect -- no benefit of cover still, yes?

Unit D fires next. It is still the same phase and the order effect is still there -- and not limited (as no such wording) to just friendly catachans firing in this firing phase.

Result? That one little flamer appears to me to function a lot like a poor man's astropath, removing cover, but unlike an astropath, it remvoes the ability of the target unit to gain the save benefit in this phase, rather than aiding a specific attack or a specific weapon's specific effect. So even units not standing nearby can beneifit (E) from the enemy target being no longer cover save protected.

Have I any errors in this train of logic from A to E?
"units targeted by models from the ordered unit with these weapons" (identifies targeted / affected enemy)
"do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover in this phase" (tells what the effect is and its duration of effect, and is rather independant of the unit firing the actual flamer, once set in.

Looks right to me. Does it make logical sense? No. Does it have to...? Again, no.
Seems to me that the order has been very specifically worded that way, to allow these shenanigans. There are plenty of other examples of stratagems and abilities that allow only the firing unit or weapon to ignore cover, and their wording is simpler as a result.

Now, a shenanigan would be to use a single special weapons squad with Burn Them Out on THREE separate units, converting the effective AP of every heavy bolter and heavy flamer in the army to ignore cover. While targetting, for example, 3 eliminator squads that no longer get +2 to save... against a flock of heavy flames .. that reroll the number of S5 hits and now function as the equivalent of ap-3.

Cadians may be able to hit any target you put downrange, but catachans are brutal in their own way too.

I did consider that possibility! But, to be fair, the likelihood of being able to pull off flamers from one unit targeting even two different units is preeeeetty low, never mind three.

With flamers going to 12" it's entirely feasible.

You need a command tank rolling forward to issue the order, and a valkyrie to drop the squad within range of 2-3 units, and then a lot of artillery to back it up. You could even put 2 tri-flamer squads in the valkyrie (IIRC they are 5 or 6 man squads) and so do the trick twice!

Does anyone know of a major tournament where this rule was used in this fashion and how the TA's were treating it? From in the last year or so? Only reason I keep harping on this, the guy arguing with me is VERY firmly convinced that the flamer ONLY is the thing that avoids the cover save, and that all other guns in the ordered unit AND all other guns in / from other shooters are not helped by the order.

while I think, as I laid out, its a wider buff that (while situational) is much easier to apply with 12 inch range flamers and maybe a flyer than it used to be.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Only reason I keep harping on this, the guy arguing with me is VERY firmly convinced that the flamer ONLY is the thing that avoids the cover save, and that all other guns in the ordered unit AND all other guns in / from other shooters are not helped by the order.

Not sure what he's reading then, because the order clearly states the targeted units do not gain *any* bonus to saving throws for cover. This is really, really clear.

Just 'cause...
It actually does make sense fluff wise for me. The order is Burn them out...as in use the flamer to drive them from the cover they are in. So flamer shoots into bunker, guys run out other side...and get no cover save. Somewhat dynamic in "action" etc style, for 40k, but, there it is.

Now, why superhuman things in full battle armor that can survive ridiculous things would "run" from a flamer is another debate...

Well, for starters, 40k flamers are not actually fire per say, but some wacky elemental heat weapon called "promethium" that apparently can melt a lot of stuff fire might not affect.

Just as the lasers of 40k are unlike the lasers of our current day in that we can (with a 3W handheld laser) more or less light a piece of paper on fire in a few seconds, while a 40k lasgun hits like a 120mm howitzer round.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Well, for starters, 40k flamers are not actually fire per say, but some wacky elemental heat weapon called "promethium" that apparently can melt a lot of stuff fire might not affect.

Just as the lasers of 40k are unlike the lasers of our current day in that we can (with a 3W handheld laser) more or less light a piece of paper on fire in a few seconds, while a 40k lasgun hits like a 120mm howitzer round.

Not exactly. The weapon they are based off of was the WW2 Flame thrower, which used a nitrogen/petroleum jelly mix to "propel" flaming gobs of jelly up to 45 meters. If memory serves, the flamers of ww2 were capable of getting so hot they could burn through things that weren't even flammable. Concreate, iron, steel. It was powerful stuff. Napalm was even worse. It was an effective anti-tank weapon of a sort. enough application to the rear of any tank would result in ammo stores "cooking off" inside the tank. It wasn't until after the Vietnam war it was declared inhuman and against the laws of war to use.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Well, for starters, 40k flamers are not actually fire per say, but some wacky elemental heat weapon called "promethium" that apparently can melt a lot of stuff fire might not affect.

'Promethium' is a general term for any form of fuel in the Imperium. Imperial flamers work much like their modern day versions, with the sole exception being a wider varieties of fuels which all work in basically the same way.

 Ghaz wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Well, for starters, 40k flamers are not actually fire per say, but some wacky elemental heat weapon called "promethium" that apparently can melt a lot of stuff fire might not affect.

'Promethium' is a general term for any form of fuel in the Imperium. Imperial flamers work much like their modern day versions, with the sole exception being a wider varieties of fuels which all work in basically the same way.

Yeah, ignore the connection to the modern element Promethium; that’s just the approximate translation of the imperial gothic word for fire juice and could easily just be petrol. Or it could be a semi-stabilised FOOF gel. Difficult to tell sometimes, with the Adeptus Mechanicus involved…

 some bloke wrote:
With flamers going to 12" it's entirely feasible.

You need a command tank rolling forward to issue the order, and a valkyrie to drop the squad within range of 2-3 units, and then a lot of artillery to back it up. You could even put 2 tri-flamer squads in the valkyrie (IIRC they are 5 or 6 man squads) and so do the trick twice!

Or get a 5 man Scion squad and give them 2 flamers, so they can save on the cost of the Valkyrie, then drop and deny cover...

Burn them out can't be used on scions as it's a catatatatatatatachan stratagem