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Made in au
Been Around the Block





Given that tactical marines are going to 2 wounds each, and their cost is known (18 points), I think the role of tactical marines vs intercessors is now really interesting.

I ran some math hammer comparisons between different unit configurations, and the results are interesting. I ran the formations against GEQ, MEQ, TEQ and GREQ (gravis equivalent) profiles, then average of the actual damage inflicted (effectiveness measure) against that bundle of targets and converted to a points per point of actual damage inflicted (efficiency measures).

The following are based on a 5-man unit being in tactical doctrine, not having moved and, if applicable, the target being in rapid fire range. Base cost of 5 man squad of intercessors is 100 points, 102 if you add an auxiliary grenade launcher:

• Assault intercessors do an average of 2.8 points of damage at 35.1 points per point of damage inflicted. If you throw in an auxiliary grenade launcher and have it fire a krak grenade it becomes 2.8 points of damage at 36.4 points per point of damage inflicted.
• Bolt rifle intercessors do an average of 2.5 points of damage at 40.8 points per point of damage inflicted. If you throw in an auxiliary grenade launcher and have it fire a krak grenade it becomes 2.4 points of damage at 43.0 points per point of damage inflicted.
• Stalker rifles do the same. However in devastator doctrine they do 2.8 wounds at 35.4 points per point of damage inflicted, or when firing a krak grenade from the launcher 2.8 at 36.6 points per point of damage inflicted.

So from the above, against that bundle of targets, the most effective squad is the assault bolters. The grenade launcher makes little difference. That formation is also the most efficient.

Where it gets interesting is taking a similarly priced tactical squad. A 5 man tactical squad is 90 points. A storm bolter is 3 points, whilst both the heavy bolter and grav cannon and amp are 10 points. This means a tactical squad with the sergeant having a storm bolter and one marine with a 10-point heavy weapon costs 103 points, or 1 point more than intercessors with the auxiliary grenade launcher. My results are:

• A 5-man tactical squad (sergeant with storm bolter) and a heavy bolter in tactical doctrine does 3.6 points of damage at 28.3 points per point of damage inflicted.
• A 5-man tactical squad (sergeant with storm bolter) and a grav cannon and amp in tactical doctrine does 4.6 points of damage at 22.3 points per point of damage inflicted.

So from this, there is a clear win to the 5-man tactical squad with storm bolter and grav cannon and amp, followed by a 5-man tactical squad with storm bolter and heavy bolter, followed by a plain 5-man assault bolter equipped intercessor squad.

Of course, the numbers only tell part of the story. Other factors to consider include (but are not limited to):

• Shorter range of the tactical marines normal bolters and therefore shorter rapid fire range
• Stability of output from assault bolter intercessors (always 3 shots)
• The firepower of the tactical squad will decline slower, as the storm bolter and heavy weapon output can be preserved by removing normal tactical marine casualties first
• Moving the tactical marines will have a greater impact on damage output (-1 to hit with the heavy weapon) than intercessors. Assault bolter intercessors can be even more mobile (advance and shot at -1) if needed).
• Intercessors have extra attacks over tactical marines.
• Smaller table sizes. Greater availability of transports for tactical marines. More stratagems for intercessors.

What do you all think? Are tactical marines viable now? Will you field them, and if so, how do you think they would best be used?

I think I’m going to run some tactical squads and use Raven Guard shenanigans to get them onto central objectives early and sit on them, and see how they go (in practice) compared to intercessors or infiltrators.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





I think they're a solid option for marines for sure. it's going to, IMHO be a hard choice between them and intercessors that will eventually pair down to personal preferance etc.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

I played 1W marines in the entire 8th edition, because I hate primaris and I'll never buy them. And I've always thought they were good, in fact my SW performed quite fine in the previous edition!! So they're now even better and there's some actual competition between firstborn and primaris models. Overall I think primaris are better though.

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Made in us
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BrianDavion wrote:
I think they're a solid option for marines for sure. it's going to, IMHO be a hard choice between them and intercessors that will eventually pair down to personal preferance etc.


Who has to make a choice? I expect to take some of both. Most of my old lists were 10 Intercessors, 10 infiltrators, and 10 sniper scouts. With the changes to infiltrators I may end up dumping them for Tacs, and dumping the scouts for assault Intercessors.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





That is a good point. I may well run some intercessors alongside some tactical squads.

Breton wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think they're a solid option for marines for sure. it's going to, IMHO be a hard choice between them and intercessors that will eventually pair down to personal preferance etc.


Who has to make a choice? I expect to take some of both. Most of my old lists were 10 Intercessors, 10 infiltrators, and 10 sniper scouts. With the changes to infiltrators I may end up dumping them for Tacs, and dumping the scouts for assault Intercessors.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Tactical squads are definitely a viable choice now depending on the role.

My gut feeling so far (haven't mathed it out yet) is that as far as troop choices go (not including infiltrators or incursors since they seem to be more meta/tech picks), it seems that for ranged damage effectiveness it goes:

Tac Marines (note: must take at least a HB + SB--with no special or heavy weapon these are strictly worse than intercessors, but why would you do that?)
Intercessors
Heavy Intercessors
Assault Intercessors

And for melee damage effectiveness it goes:

Assault Intercessors
Intercessors
Tac Marines
Heavy Intercessors

And for basic durability vs non anti-tank weapons it goes:

Heavy Intercessors
Assault Intercessors and Regular Intercessors (because Transhuman strat)
Tac Marines

Seems there's some real choices to make--go for customizeable ranged damage that has ablative wounds with Tacticals? Go for troops that can take an occupied objective with Assault Ints? Go for all rounders vs infantry with regular Ints? Or go for durable bodies with long ranged low RoF anti-elite firepower but relatively low melee power with Heavy Ints?

We could argue that some points tweaking needs to take place, but stats wise I like what they've done.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/08 13:33:14


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

As I have ony 1 Hellblaster built, my thoughts on this are much simpler, dont involve math or any extended philosophizing & can be summed up with: "Oh, ok".

But even once I eventually get around to assembling the SM side of my indom box + new atv & bike primaris chaplain? NOTHING is going to change unit wise in my SA/SW/UM forces as im not adding those figs to those firces....
The only difference is my existing squads now die a little slower.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





The Grenade Launcher is Assault now right? So can't you shoot it and the bolter at the same time?
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




you can shot with both.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Spoletta wrote:
As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.



100+ points is a lot to pay for a Multi Melta. Sure it's mostly points you were likely spending anyway, but there's better/cheaper platforms for Melta. On Tacs I'd do Grav, HB, ML's etc to pair with their bolters. Then just squadron some MM speeders or ATVs that have better movement and don't have to potentially choose between ObSec'ing or moving a MM into range of something.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





Stux wrote:The Grenade Launcher is Assault now right? So can't you shoot it and the bolter at the same time?


Karol wrote:you can shot with both.


If that is the case, that might shift the mathhammer a little towards assault intercessors. That said, given grav guns are 30" range now, I can see a heap of merit in parking tacticals on mid-board objectives on smaller tables. Good flexible threat-range. Not great in melee for sure, but I think for shooting armies they might be worth it. For example, Dark Angels with their +1 to hit or maybe even Raven Guard with +1 to hit and wound vs characters in tactical doctrine could make a SB+Grav or SB+HB tactical squad a mini-nightmare to deal with. I can also see what the guys at TableTop Titans were taking about recently, in that moving tacticals up with Rhinos or Razorbacks (or even a drop pod) and parking the vehicles and tactical marines on objectives early would be hard to deal with, and more feasible (points wise) than using primaris transport options to do the same.

I think for a straight up 100-point comparison, I'd be leaning slightly towards tacticals with grav gun over assault intercessors, but would depend on how much melee I might be expecting. I think for the next few games I am going to run 50/50 assault intercessors and tactical squads with grav guns, and see how they go


   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





grav guns are only 18, or do you mean grav cannons?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






@OP, Why give the Tacticals a Storm Bolter when you can give them a Combi Plasma? I know the SB makes for more similar points costs to the Intercessors, but that's far more arbitrary than raw return-on-points. I always take the combi-plas because it's pure bonus damage output without spending more points on another platform to carry it.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





BrianDavion wrote:
grav guns are only 18, or do you mean grav cannons?


I meant grav cannons, sorry about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
@OP, Why give the Tacticals a Storm Bolter when you can give them a Combi Plasma? I know the SB makes for more similar points costs to the Intercessors, but that's far more arbitrary than raw return-on-points. I always take the combi-plas because it's pure bonus damage output without spending more points on another platform to carry it.


I did the mathhammer purely to looks at very closely priced units. I agree that throwing a combi-plasma onto the sergeant is a very, very good idea.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 03:31:59


 
   
Made in us
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Murray, Kentucky

I'm going to be running tacs for blood angels and crusaders for my black Templar. Wish they'd gotten 2 attacks base like primaris but I'll live. Either way the extra wound helps a lot and let's you really take advantage of their flexibility so they can compete with primaris. At least now I feel like running old marines is a preference and not a "I'm deliberately handicapping myself for lore reasons" now.

I think the key to making the tacs work is figuring out how to make their flexibility matter. Primaris are absolutely the better choice for a specialist, point and click troops unit. They do a job, and they'll do it well, problem is they only really do one or two things well. Meanwhile tacs can be pretty decent at everything, but they'll never excel in one job like primaris will. 40k likes it's specialist units but I feel like we'll see tacs with a basic heavy weapon and a combi weapon on the sarge pop up as the mandatory troops in lots of lists supporting their more specialized brethren. I don't play a lot of marines however, and definitely not competitively, so we'll see how it shakes out. Interesting to see mathammer may prefer them in a shooting match though.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm going to be running tacs for blood angels and crusaders for my black Templar. Wish they'd gotten 2 attacks base like primaris but I'll live. Either way the extra wound helps a lot and let's you really take advantage of their flexibility so they can compete with primaris. At least now I feel like running old marines is a preference and not a "I'm deliberately handicapping myself for lore reasons" now.

I think the key to making the tacs work is figuring out how to make their flexibility matter. Primaris are absolutely the better choice for a specialist, point and click troops unit. They do a job, and they'll do it well, problem is they only really do one or two things well. Meanwhile tacs can be pretty decent at everything, but they'll never excel in one job like primaris will. 40k likes it's specialist units but I feel like we'll see tacs with a basic heavy weapon and a combi weapon on the sarge pop up as the mandatory troops in lots of lists supporting their more specialized brethren. I don't play a lot of marines however, and definitely not competitively, so we'll see how it shakes out. Interesting to see mathammer may prefer them in a shooting match though.
Tacs will out-damage elite/heavy targets over Intercessors. Intercessors cannot compete with the output potential of the Heavy/Specials.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





I'm playing with the idea of 4-6 tac Squads in Pods landing on the objectives turn 1. You've got a 8w vehicle, and 10-20 ObSec Wounds to remove now. Going second might provide a monkey wrench to clear, but that's why I'm playing with the idea as I figure it out. Potentially Pod on the other side, charge from both ends so they can't fall back... something along those lines...

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Spoletta wrote:
As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.


Multimeltas are fine now. 32ppm Retributors, 145ppm Immolators or 38 ppm Devastators are fair prices for multimeltas platforms.

It something that should be 40 or even 50 BEFORE the multimelta (or whatever its assault equivalent is called) that is an abomination. Problem is the platform, and maybe the core mechanics that allow pretty much everything to deepstrike/outkland, not the weapon. Weapon was trash before the changes.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block





I just had a thought: the grenade launcher on intercessors is now assault, meaning it can be fire *in addition* to the rifle.

Do you think that might skew the metrics back towards them?

I haven't had time to run the numbers in detail, but it looks like it closes the gap, but tactical squad with grav cannon and SB would still be both more effective and more points efficient in terms of dealing damage to a range of targets.
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.


Multimeltas are fine now. 32ppm Retributors, 145ppm Immolators or 38 ppm Devastators are fair prices for multimeltas platforms.

It something that should be 40 or even 50 BEFORE the multimelta (or whatever its assault equivalent is called) that is an abomination. Problem is the platform, and maybe the core mechanics that allow pretty much everything to deepstrike/outkland, not the weapon. Weapon was trash before the changes.


Anyone know the points on attack bikes in the new book? Just curious is all

Since they're a very similar to eradicators Stateline barring Move, and wounds, which the attack bike probably has more of plus a twin bolt gun

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/13 00:43:36


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 fraser1191 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.


Multimeltas are fine now. 32ppm Retributors, 145ppm Immolators or 38 ppm Devastators are fair prices for multimeltas platforms.

It something that should be 40 or even 50 BEFORE the multimelta (or whatever its assault equivalent is called) that is an abomination. Problem is the platform, and maybe the core mechanics that allow pretty much everything to deepstrike/outkland, not the weapon. Weapon was trash before the changes.


Anyone know the points on attack bikes in the new book? Just curious is all

Since they're a very similar to eradicators Stateline barring Move, and wounds, which the attack bike probably has more of plus a twin bolt gun


45 PPM, 55 with MM

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






BrianDavion wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.


Multimeltas are fine now. 32ppm Retributors, 145ppm Immolators or 38 ppm Devastators are fair prices for multimeltas platforms.

It something that should be 40 or even 50 BEFORE the multimelta (or whatever its assault equivalent is called) that is an abomination. Problem is the platform, and maybe the core mechanics that allow pretty much everything to deepstrike/outkland, not the weapon. Weapon was trash before the changes.


Anyone know the points on attack bikes in the new book? Just curious is all

Since they're a very similar to eradicators Stateline barring Move, and wounds, which the attack bike probably has more of plus a twin bolt gun


45 PPM, 55 with MM


And how many wounds do they have now? At least 4

Whys no one complaining about these guys?

There's loads of first born and Primaris comparison to be made beyond intercessors and tacs I'd say but I guess all that belongs more in tactics
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:

Whys no one complaining about these guys?


Because they're maximum squad size of 3, cannot double tap, dont have a super-heavy variant for +2 damage, and as Bikers cant interact with cover.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 fraser1191 wrote:
Whys no one complaining about these guys?


Probably because Eradicators have been in the spotlight, and don't cost > $100 per unit of 3.

That said, 38% more expensive than Eradicators is non-negligible. The really egregious thing about Eradicators is how much damage they can do for their price; Attack Bikes are faster and a bit tougher but reducing that sheer efficiency curbs them a bit. Eradicators also received renewed hate from the revelation that they have even better weapons available in the new codex.

I still think multimeltas have gone from underpowered to overpowered overnight, but at least they're not as absurd as what Eradicators represent.

Also Sterling191 keep in mind that multimeltas are two shots base now, so they actually have double-tap built into their weapon profile.
   
Made in us
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 fraser1191 wrote:

And how many wounds do they have now? At least 4

Whys no one complaining about these guys?

There's loads of first born and Primaris comparison to be made beyond intercessors and tacs I'd say but I guess all that belongs more in tactics


I was pointing it out a month ago, but the usual suspects were shouting it down during their temper tantrum.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Breton wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:

And how many wounds do they have now? At least 4

Whys no one complaining about these guys?

There's loads of first born and Primaris comparison to be made beyond intercessors and tacs I'd say but I guess all that belongs more in tactics


I was pointing it out a month ago, but the usual suspects were shouting it down during their temper tantrum.


First born units being compeitive in this regard tend to not fit with the narrative certain people are pushing that GW is over powering primaris
   
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 catbarf wrote:

Also Sterling191 keep in mind that multimeltas are two shots base now, so they actually have double-tap built into their weapon profile.


This would a relevant distinction if Eradicators couldnt take multimeltas and utilize their double tap to put out more shots than an equivalent number of attack bikes. But they can. ABs max out at 6 shots per trio. A trio of Eradicators is putting out 8, 4 of which are at +2 damage just for showing up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/13 11:50:13


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Mini marines with 2 wounds invalidate pretty much every non gravis unit.

It's why it was an obviously bad change and obviously bad direction for profits. It wont last long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
As long as the multimelta keeps being such an abomination, then tactical squads with a multi melta will be highly popular.


Multimeltas are fine now. 32ppm Retributors, 145ppm Immolators or 38 ppm Devastators are fair prices for multimeltas platforms.

It something that should be 40 or even 50 BEFORE the multimelta (or whatever its assault equivalent is called) that is an abomination. Problem is the platform, and maybe the core mechanics that allow pretty much everything to deepstrike/outkland, not the weapon. Weapon was trash before the changes.


Anyone know the points on attack bikes in the new book? Just curious is all

Since they're a very similar to eradicators Stateline barring Move, and wounds, which the attack bike probably has more of plus a twin bolt gun


45 PPM, 55 with MM


And how many wounds do they have now? At least 4

Whys no one complaining about these guys?

There's loads of first born and Primaris comparison to be made beyond intercessors and tacs I'd say but I guess all that belongs more in tactics

The real issue with the MM is the cost of the weapon. It should be like...30-35 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/13 14:11:38


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