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Made in ch
Sword-Wielding Bloodletter of Khorne






The last 10 years in the GW miniatures hobby have seen some immense creative developments. In 40k the primaris marines have been introduced with a huge range of new miniatures. Also, Adeptus Mechanicus and Genestealer Cults, previously rather obscure factions received a whole roster of new concepts. Other armies have been expanded with brand new units as well, most recently Necrons in 9th ed. In Warhammer fantasy, the developments have been even more striking, with AoS changing the creative course for most armies and introducing many brand new miniature concepts.

Yet there is one faction that stands out, in contrast to this: Chaos Daemons.
Chaos daemons have seen few creative developments in recent years. Conceptually, many of the current units are updates from concepts that have been existing since, Realm of Chaos, 2nd edition 40k or Epic.

Notable new concepts are:
  • Furies (3rd edition)

  • Screamers (3rd edition)

  • Soul Grinder (4th edition)

  • Heralds (4th edition to 5th edition)

  • Seeker / Hellflayer (5th edition)

  • Plague Drone (5th edition)

  • Blood throne (6th edition)

  • Brimstone horrors (7th edition)

  • Gnarlmaw (8th edition)

  • Vortex Beast (8th edition)


  • Outside of these ten, other newly released models were special characters that are derivatives from existing herald / greater daemon concepts. The 9th edition Necron release has almost more new concepts than 6 editions of chaos daemons.

    I'm left wondering why this is the case and why GW is seemingly unwilling to innovate on concepts that have been established in Realm of Chaos (1988). This is rather ironic, given that the warp is an infinite space and daemons supposedly infinite in their variety.
       
    Made in gb
    Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





    Stevenage, UK

    I've had this thought recently too... but I'm not so sure it's as glaring as it feels. I think it's more a case of the changes that were made, never really taking off. Plus, the army had a lot more variety than other factions did in the older editions so they haven't needed as much while others caught up (remember that every new "type" of unit basically means 4 new units for Daemons, because each God needs one).

    It seems like almost nobody picked up the newer chariot units (saying that, knowing I have one myself!) and the Heralds are, let's face it, really just fancy unit champions so they didn't take off.
    Outside of that, there's also actually quite a few new things when you look purely at datasheets (the Nurgle and Slaanesh specials like Sloppity Bilepiper and the Infernal Enrapturess). But it's just that they exist as single new models so in terms of the army "footprint", nothing's changed from the basic Greater Daemon/Prince/Troops layout.

    What the faction REALLY needs if you ask me is a new core unit for each God. It needn't necessarily be Troops, but infantry that's central enough that you might consider dropping a unit of ObSec Troops to bring it.


    "Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut





     Darkseid wrote:
    Yet there is one faction that stands out, in contrast to this: Chaos Daemons.
    How so?
    Factions like admech and genestealer cults are being built from the ground up, they don't have the 50-60+ units that daemons have. Primaris are about as far from an immense creative development as you can get, sisters have barely advanced from their 3rd edition lineup, and crons have had what - two big releases in the past six editions?

    Once you get outside of the loyalist and traitor marine releases things dry up pretty fast for the established factions. If you get more than a limited release character or killteam model you are ahead of the curve, sadly.
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran





    If think chaos demons feel like an afterthought on the tabletop which is a shame considering the PR they get in the fluff. I’d like to see cultists and demon codex followed by a Benin’s of khorne, nurgle etc supplement. There must be denons and cultists that are chaos undivided.

    I haven’t read the current codex but my understanding is that taking a soup army isn’t very good so it’s basically one codex for 4 small armies


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Or maybe a word bearers and Demons dex

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/08 19:02:16


     
       
    Made in us
    Sister Oh-So Repentia





    and half the slaanesh daemons only exist becuase of fantasy (chariots for example)

    Khorne needs its 3+ brass armor back

    Bring back undivided daemons. they exist, as much as GW likes to pretend they dont (like the lore changes on furies), there are plenty of natural born warp entities that dont belong to any of the 4 (5) chaos gods.

    Its about time chaos daemons learn how to pick up guns. warp ammo exists.

    "If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
       
    Made in gb
    Dakka Veteran





     warmaster21 wrote:
    and half the slaanesh daemons only exist becuase of fantasy (chariots for example)

    Khorne needs its 3+ brass armor back

    Bring back undivided daemons. they exist, as much as GW likes to pretend they dont (like the lore changes on furies), there are plenty of natural born warp entities that dont belong to any of the 4 (5) chaos gods.

    Its about time chaos daemons learn how to pick up guns. warp ammo exists.


    In the Fabius bile novels there is a character called a never borne that was borne humans but is now some kind of demons, not sure I quite understood. But she uses guns etc. They would be an interesting addition to a demon army
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    I kind of think A.T. is on the right track. Other than marines, I don't think my armies get a lot of "innovative" new units. My drukhari got a nice reimagining in 5th edition, and each codex since then has mostly just been removing the more creative and unique rules that the 5th edition book introduced. My craftworlders got a couple new psychic powers (at the cost of the old, weaker ones) and a couple wraith knights since I started playing in 5th. Not much else. Tyranids got some new 5th edition units that introduced new mechanics to their line, but they haven't really gotten much since then.

    Basically, daemons get about as many "creative" releases as most factions, but it's more apparent how little that really is because...
    A.) many of the options are just an initial concept through a different god's lens. Here's the chariot if it were tzeentchy. Here's the chariot if it were slaaneshi, etc. Here's cavalry if it were nurgley. Here's cavalry if it were khornate.

    B.) Within a given god's theme, many units are just slight variations on the same mechanics. Daemonettes, seekers, and fiends are all mostly just some variation on "fast thing that rends on 6s." And also the fiend can prevent fallback. Bloodletters and crushers are both just different versions of "melee unit with good AP."

    In an edition where taking lots of detachments is discouraged, you run into this sameyness more.

    This might be an unpopular opinion, but I do feel that daemons just work better when lumped in with chaos marines. A slaaneshi daemon army is just a tidal wave of claws hoping to roll enough 6s to win before the enemy shoots them to death. But in an army that includes csm, those daemonettes become a cheap, fast, squishy assault unit that complements and contrasts with the slow, sturdy, shootyness of CSM and noise marines. Fiends become a valuable lockdown unit that can contain enemies you don't have enough guns to deal with yet. Seekers become fast-but-squishy melee unit compared to the bikers' fast-and-durable shooting unit.

    Nurgle gains a mix of profiles that are each durable in their own way. Things that kill plague marines efficiently might not be as efficient against plague bearers. Nurglings and the fly cavalary guys give you a forward presence and some mobility.

    The low model count sorcerers of a Thousand Sons army can rely on piles of splitting horrors to flood objectives while their rubricae gun down heavy infantry.

    Khorne remains a bit monotonous, but simply having access to a few more guns can dramatically change how you crack the nut that is your opponent's gunline.

    To me, the daemons for a given god generally seem like a good compliment to that god's CSM cult troops. Splitting them into two books (and thus 2 detachments) just puts a CP tax on an intuitive tag team.
       
    Made in us
    Rough Rider with Boomstick





    I think the problem is GW can't seem to decide if they want Mono-God Daemons to be the focus, or the kitchen sink.

    Personally, I'd do the AoS thing of just merging a specific god's Daemons in with their respective Legion (Death Guard get Nurgle, etc). Allow the Chaos Daemon codex to use those units as well, but with a greater emphasis on new Undivided stuff (like Furies) to make them more unique with the expectation you're running with the kitchen sink approach of using stuff from all/most gods.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 10:08:42


     
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

    I think if 40K Demons ends and starts up having each Demon army on its own we might see more growth. I think one issue with a united Chaos Demons force is that each demon faction doesn't need to have all the tools because they rely on other.s

    You don't get ranged Slaanesh weapons because you've got the Khorne Skull Cannon.


    Now that they've splintered them in AoS you can really see the gaps within each god's own force. One can hope that GW will continue to expand and add more. I was indeed somewhat sad when I saw Slaanesh get all these fantastic new leaders and creative models, but didn't get any new demon monsters on their own. We did get a fantastic revamped fiend kit. GW has huge potential creative options for demons, it just needs unlocking and releasing onto the tabletop. I'd love to see more options and I think having each demon army on its own opens it up to those options greatly.


    I agree - end Chaos Demons as a book - release four books, one for each god, and then have the demons paid with their mortal chaos army. Then use that to add more demons and chaos warped critters. 40K is actually in a really good position for this as they've had mono-legion chaos mortal armies for a long while - it just takes fragmenting Chaos Demons into a four stand-alone army with the general Chaos force then being like Slaves to Darkness - a united option.

       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut





     Overread wrote:
    You don't get ranged Slaanesh weapons because you've got the Khorne Skull Cannon.
    It is how chaos were originally designed as a disparate and chaotic warband rather than an ordered and regimented force.

    No wound soaking slaanesh units, fast nurgle units, psychic khorne units, etc. On the one hand the chapter-style 'codex monogod' does seem very popular, on the other hand it kind of feels like a dilution of the overall faction - similar to space marines have become codex:'we don't have a theme, we have everything'
       
    Made in de
    Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




    I'm curious to see what the DG Codex brings. They included Daemons last time but they were basically just page fillers because they didn't really work with any of the armies bonuses and prevented you from getting DG Boni even. The argument was you could summon them, but outside of narrative that wasn't very viable and in narrative it was very unbalanced.
    So I wonder if they merge the two better, imo it would help both and also give DG some more options in a rather limited roster. They took away Bikes and Raptors for fluff reasons, if we now get proper access to Plague Drones and Beasts I'm okay with that.
       
    Made in us
    Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






    mrFickle wrote:
     warmaster21 wrote:
    and half the slaanesh daemons only exist becuase of fantasy (chariots for example)

    Khorne needs its 3+ brass armor back

    Bring back undivided daemons. they exist, as much as GW likes to pretend they dont (like the lore changes on furies), there are plenty of natural born warp entities that dont belong to any of the 4 (5) chaos gods.

    Its about time chaos daemons learn how to pick up guns. warp ammo exists.


    In the Fabius bile novels there is a character called a never borne that was borne humans but is now some kind of demons, not sure I quite understood. But she uses guns etc. They would be an interesting addition to a demon army


    You're confusing several concepts there. "Neverborn" is merely what daemons call themselves, it's a catch all name for any and all warp entities. I presume you are referring to Savona there though, who is nothing special in the grand scheme of things like you think, she is a mortal who through numerous blessings from her patron god is on her way to becoming a DP, so standard fare for many a mortal Chaos champion.



    A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

    ""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

    If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
       
    Made in us
    Sister Oh-So Repentia





    If we really want to go down the rabbit hole legion of the damned are imperium daemons, Celestine is an Imperial daemon princess / Greater daemon, theres an entire sisters order that is basically legion of the damned but for sisters....

    Im not sure what all GW would even consider doing for daemons. they are held back becuase they also exist in AoS and gw doesnt seem to want to give daemons units that wont work for Aos and only work in 40k.

    Maybe the only rout left to go besides inventing new lesser or mid tier daemons for each god would be to expand out the daemon engines or roll in possessed to the daemon books. we know daemons can be bound into soul grinders but whos to say they cant be imprisoned (debt slaved) to the hell forges into other warmachines.

    Im all for recombining daemons with chaos. in fantasy chaos got weaker overall when they split beastman, warriors of chaos and daemons apart into 3 seperate books, i would like to see mono god get more support but i just dont see it happening. though who knows when world eaters and emperors children will get their own support if ever.

    "If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
       
    Made in gb
    Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





    Stevenage, UK

     warmaster21 wrote:
    If we really want to go down the rabbit hole legion of the damned are imperium daemons, Celestine is an Imperial daemon princess / Greater daemon, theres an entire sisters order that is basically legion of the damned but for sisters....

    HERESY DETECTED!!

    Im not sure what all GW would even consider doing for daemons. they are held back becuase they also exist in AoS and gw doesnt seem to want to give daemons units that wont work for Aos and only work in 40k.

    I did have this thought too... maybe they're just not sure what to do with them. Or maybe, more cynically, they're purposely holding back from them a little because releases for them don't make as much profit as a separate AoS/40k release would, that some people would buy both of.
    Of course, the simple answer there is to start releasing Daemons that are unique to either game! Have them take on aspects of other armies as cruel reflections of them, in the same way that Slaanesh often has Elven/Eldar characteristics.

    "Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
       
    Made in de
    Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




    For Nurgle at least the Gellarpox infected have shown some neat concepts: worms, termites, giant flies, these could be expanded for the Daemon faction.
    So let's collect some more ideas?
    Warp Bolters have been an equipment for Daemon princes since 3rd edition I think, why not make a Daemon unit using them?
    Vomiting Nurgle shooting unit (yes, they might be similar to tzeentch flamers, but I don't care for a mixed god approach ).
    Some long range lasso unit for slaanesh that can pull enemy units closer (inspired by the lash of submission from 4th edition).
    A floating giant skull that spits skulls as shooting attack for Khorne. You can't go more GW than that .
       
    Made in gb
    Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





    Stevenage, UK

    I like those ideas! If you make the Nurgle vomit work like plague weapons, they needn't feel like flamers. In fact that'd be really useful to have on a Troops unit - plonk them on an objective, and if they're flamer-type weapons they can autohit on Overwatch if anything tries to charge them off.
    The Warp Bolters I think I would give to a Tzeentch unit, because that ties in nicely with the Thousand Sons, thematically. I'm not sure they should be bolters, though - that's a bit too grounded in reality, maybe some kind of warp-rifle that looks distinctly unique. A lot like the old Tyranid spike rifle looked like nothing else.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/10 14:08:05


    "Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

    I've always thought Slaanesh could do with a ranged demon that throws blades/knives and keeps them holstered in its flesh during battle.

    Or something winged and sort of a twisted dragon type creature.

       
    Made in us
    Sister Oh-So Repentia





    Slaanesh defiantly needs more range whips

    "If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

     warmaster21 wrote:
    Slaanesh defiantly needs more range whips


    NO NO NO NO NO PLEASE NO!

    Unless they are coiled like the Keeper- please no more paper thin long plastic whips!!

       
    Made in ca
    Longtime Dakkanaut






    My problem with Daemons has always been that they just aren't scary looking. They look cartoony.

    Some of the newer sculpts have been good like the Keeper of Secrets as an example.

    They just don't look like the absolute insane, mind-bending horror they should. The Tzeentch ones are particularly egregious. They look like Disney cartoons compared to the old horrors which actually looked good.

    Some of it is the way Citadel paints them. It's far too clean. Just doesn't suit them in any way.

    What I would like to see is more Ogre sized daemons. A new plastic Daemon Prince because the one that exists right now is one of the worst sculpts GW has. It's brutal how bad it is. The 3.5 ed Daemon Prince was miles better.

    We need more torture and body horror.

    And if they're going to do the Doom, mechanical daemon route, at least make the daemon engines look interesting. Units like the Skull Cannon look stupid and uninspired.

    Just off the top of my head. Some units they could make:

    Khorne:

    -Duel Weld Axe infantry
    -Half man/half juggernaught ogre sized infantry with huge axes and gattling guns
    -Daemon Centaur type cavalry with spears and shields
    -Ogre sized armoured knight daemons
    -Flying infantry with spears and shields
    -Khornate Dragons that breath fire
    -Mechanical Scorpion Daemons (plastic brass scorpions?)

    Slaanesh:

    -Ogre sized Shiva Daemons with 6 arms wielding swords
    -Demonettes with harp bows that shoot music that explodes your head
    -Winged Daemonettes
    -Ogre sized Half female/half spider cavalry
    -Slaaneshi ballistas that shoot Chakrams
    -Slaaneshi choir that buff/debuffs units

    Tzeentch:

    -Ogre Sized Daemonic Knights with flaming weapons
    -Flying Raven Knight Daemons
    -Floating squid daemon
    -Flightless bird cavalry like a daemonic ostrich or something.
    -Flaming Catapult
    -Daemonic Phoenix daemon with 2 heads and 6 wings
    -Fire breathing dragon daemons
    -Daemonic Dragon knights

    Nurgle:

    -Ogre sized troll plague knights
    -Plague giant who's guts are spilled out and the entrails attack you
    -Flying mace infantry with vulture wings
    -Filth Cauldron chariot that spreads disease
    -Ogre sized plague bearers
    -Diseased corpse launcher

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 18:28:55


    Square Bases for Life!
    AoS is pure garbage
    Kill Primaris, Kill the Primarchs. They don't belong in 40K
    40K is fantasy in space, not sci-fi 
       
    Made in us
    Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






    One of the problems with the current Daemon book being restricted like this is simple. The keywords. And unfortunately that won't change any time soon.

    Back when Daemons got their first separate book at the tail end of 4th there was no end of people all over the globe using "counts as" for various Daemon units to look visually like the god they had chosen.

    You had people using Cryx Bloat Thralls as count as Flamers, but with a Nurgle twist. I myself used the Chaos Warrior Chosen models as a unit I called "Goreforgers", they were the unfortunate mortal worshippers of Khorne who have had the indignity to die in their sleep, it was mentioned in the Daemon book these were the lowest of the low and they toil in Khorne's weapon forges. I counted them as Plaguebearers, where they formed the vanguard of the first wave. I also made a unit called "Charnel Knights" out of Chaos Knight and Bloodletter bits, which counted as Fiends.

    All the alt units are there, you just had to get creative. I remember seeing Daemonette minis covered in various Nid parts (and even had Nid warrior crests as giant shields on their hands). These were Slaaneshi counts-as Plaguebearers.

    You could do loads with books of that era (SMs were a good example too). The units were simply archetypes and not bound by anything codified like keywords. A lot fo the stuff in the above post could have easily been covered by counts as in past editions.

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 22:45:08




    A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

    ""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

    If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

    Are key words really that limiting?

    All they are is key-words that identify specific properties of the model. A Fiend of Slaanesh is not more a Fiend of Slaanesh because its in the key-word segment of its profile and not just its title. If you wanted to use a "counts as" nurgle inspired conversion the key-words wouldn't stop you.

    So long as you could tell it was supposed to be a fiend on the battlefield and wasn't confused for another model.



    It's more likely that its just a bit of generational shift in the use of counts-as and official models coming through.
    Also with GW now having a "no models no rules" policy it has shifted conversions from a "must" to an option. Which is, honestly, better than what it was before. I recall waiting an waiting and wondering if GW was ever going to give us a Doom model for Tyranids. Sure you could convert, but there's a difference between doing it because you want too and doing it because GW "might" give you a model at some vague point in the future or they might take it away because they haven't made a model (so if you converted it now its gone). etc...


       
    Made in us
    Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





     Brutus_Apex wrote:
    My problem with Daemons has always been that they just aren't scary looking. They look cartoony.

    Some of the newer sculpts have been good like the Keeper of Secrets as an example.

    They just don't look like the absolute insane, mind-bending horror they should. The Tzeentch ones are particularly egregious. They look like Disney cartoons compared to the old horrors which actually looked good.

    Some of it is the way Citadel paints them. It's far too clean. Just doesn't suit them in any way.

    What I would like to see is more Ogre sized daemons. A new plastic Daemon Prince because the one that exists right now is one of the worst sculpts GW has. It's brutal how bad it is. The 3.5 ed Daemon Prince was miles better.

    We need more torture and body horror.

    And if they're going to do the Doom, mechanical daemon route, at least make the daemon engines look interesting. Units like the Skull Cannon look stupid and uninspired.

    Just off the top of my head. Some units they could make:

    Khorne:

    -Duel Weld Axe infantry
    -Half man/half juggernaught ogre sized infantry with huge axes and gattling guns
    -Daemon Centaur type cavalry with spears and shields
    -Ogre sized armoured knight daemons
    -Flying infantry with spears and shields
    -Khornate Dragons that breath fire
    -Mechanical Scorpion Daemons (plastic brass scorpions?)

    Slaanesh:

    -Ogre sized Shiva Daemons with 6 arms wielding swords
    -Demonettes with harp bows that shoot music that explodes your head
    -Winged Daemonettes
    -Ogre sized Half female/half spider cavalry
    -Slaaneshi ballistas that shoot Chakrams
    -Slaaneshi choir that buff/debuffs units

    Tzeentch:

    -Ogre Sized Daemonic Knights with flaming weapons
    -Flying Raven Knight Daemons
    -Floating squid daemon
    -Flightless bird cavalry like a daemonic ostrich or something.
    -Flaming Catapult
    -Daemonic Phoenix daemon with 2 heads and 6 wings
    -Fire breathing dragon daemons
    -Daemonic Dragon knights

    Nurgle:

    -Ogre sized troll plague knights
    -Plague giant who's guts are spilled out and the entrails attack you
    -Flying mace infantry with vulture wings
    -Filth Cauldron chariot that spreads disease
    -Ogre sized plague bearers
    -Diseased corpse launcher


    I myself personally love the Tzeentch daemons as they are, but there definitely need to be new models. Undivided daemons would be cool, or if not that, have more models like furies that can take different marks for different abilities, and they should definitely be far more insane in their appearance, not the more staid designs we have now.

    Something that is needed in 40k is dakka daemons; infantry and other stuff, not just a few cannons and some short-range things. 40k is a much different game than AOS and an army almost always needs at least some solid shooting to be viable. I would also love to see CSM and daemons be able to interact more, especially when it comes CSM daemon units like possessed and engines. I honestly would not be opposed to at least some of the CSM daemon units be able to be placed in Chaos daemon detachments with no loss of auras or loci.

    Also, Be'lakor needs an update; as it is, he pretty much can't be played in any detachment if you want to keep auras. At the very least, he should be like Fabius Bile and be able to be in a daemon detachment without affecting the loci one way or another. At best, maybe he could have his own sub-faction, as it's canon that he has his own separate armies that he commands.
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut




     Brutus_Apex wrote:

    Slaanesh:

    -Ogre sized Shiva Daemons with 6 arms wielding swords
    -Demonettes with harp bows that shoot music that explodes your head
    -Winged Daemonettes
    -Ogre sized Half female/half spider cavalry
    -Slaaneshi ballistas that shoot Chakrams
    -Slaaneshi choir that buff/debuffs units


    Heh. I've actually already done a couple of those. My "fiends" are made using marileth (spelling) demons from one of the D&D ranges. So six-armed tall things that turn into a snake below the waist. I also use the Nolzur's range's drider lady as heralds on mounts. Regarding slaaneshi archers, I always thought it would be cool to give them glass arrows that hold weaponized magic gasses. Fear gas to make people run or disrupt overwatch. Poison gas that has the blast rule. That sort of thing. Music bows are cool, but sort of redundant with noise marines?

    Of course, that's part of why I'm reluctant to give daemons a ton of new units as they are. The proposed nurgley vomit "flamers" make perfect sense, but they sort of step on flamers' toes. Winged daemonettes are cool, but how do they differ from seekers? Giving each god an artillery piece is cool, but also it makes the skullcannon less unique. If we end up giving each god all the other gods' unique units, then we may as well just combine all those similar units into a single profile and let them choose a special ability based on their god. Like, if nurgle gets vomit flamers and slaanesh gets scream flamers and khorne gets blood flamers, then Tzeentch is no longer, "the god with flamers as his thing." He's just the god whose flamers have a 4+ invul and maybe a slightly different weapon profile from the 3 other flamer variants.
       
    Made in us
    Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






     Overread wrote:
    Are key words really that limiting?

    All they are is key-words that identify specific properties of the model. A Fiend of Slaanesh is not more a Fiend of Slaanesh because its in the key-word segment of its profile and not just its title. If you wanted to use a "counts as" nurgle inspired conversion the key-words wouldn't stop you.

    So long as you could tell it was supposed to be a fiend on the battlefield and wasn't confused for another model.



    Um, yes.

    Despite what GW might think, most Chaos players IME want to run a monotheistic list. Back when, a Fiend or a Nurgling swarm was just a statline and could be anything with the right models to get the correct "look". Now? They're shackled by keywords that will break Battleforged and/or Daemonic Loci if you mix them or put them in the wrong detachment. Put that Fiend in a NURGLE detachment and their character's lose the Locus bonus.

    GW wants you to run multiple small monotheistic detachments, yet the game punishes you for doing so. Unlike numerous other cases here, you are not rewarded for your creativity because of the keywords defining everything into its own little box.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 08:07:46




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    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    UK

    Grim I get what you mean now regarding keywords! I was thinking model side rather than rules side limitations.

    Personally I figure they are slowly moving the 40K demons closer to the AoS approach - mono-god armies instead of a single united army. 40K would even get a bit of a head start since the mortal side - Marines - would be quite well rounded. That said it would highlight the need/desire to make more monsters/chaos creatures of a purely mono-god style.


       
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    Second Story Man




    Astonished of Heck

     Super Ready wrote:
    I did have this thought too... maybe they're just not sure what to do with them. Or maybe, more cynically, they're purposely holding back from them a little because releases for them don't make as much profit as a separate AoS/40k release would, that some people would buy both of.
    Of course, the simple answer there is to start releasing Daemons that are unique to either game! Have them take on aspects of other armies as cruel reflections of them, in the same way that Slaanesh often has Elven/Eldar characteristics.

    There is an alternative to that, though. Provide wargear that can be used only in one or the other, but still provided in the same kit. Kind of like if the Tzaangors came with the upgrade kit already in the box. Of course it would work even better if those could be magnetized, but this is GW we're talking about.

    The alternative is to basically make all their ranged abilities magical and biological so they can be largely universal.

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    Decrepit Dakkanaut





    Halifax

    It might be something to think outside of the box for stuff that lets them address enemy units in the Shooting phase, like stuff that causes morale checks (or whatever they're called now) or forces enemy units to move or otherwise. Just shooting-but-magic and magic are kind of boring. But having different sorts of Bloodletters (axes vs swords vs pikes?), different sorts of Daemonettes (rapiers, improve troupes, etc).

       
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    New development would be nice.

    But OP missed The Infernal Enrapturess and Syll'Eske. Unless of course, OP considers those to be the characters based on existing patterns.

    And while I can see that (I think both Syll and the Enrapturess were Heralds), I don't think it's particularly fair; Syll'Eske, as a dual/hybrid character IS a new innovation for Slaanesh. The innovative nature of the Enrapturess is more subtle- she is a bridge from Daemons to Noise Marines; the Noise Marine concept has been a part of Slaanesh's portfolio forever, but until now, the penchant for music and its associated sensations was not present in Slaanesh's Daemonic minions. Sure, daemonic troops could always take musicians for their own morale boost, and sure, the Masque was described as a dancer. But the Enrapturess is the first Daemonic music unit, and I was grateful for the link to Noise Marine mayhem.
       
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    Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




    Newcastle

    An additional sprue in the daemon troops boxes to give a ranged option would be interesting. Throwing axes/spears for bloodletters etc. The daemon kits are pretty boring in terms of options, most of them give you no choice at all or just the unit leader, musician and icon bearer.

    An undivided kit with decorative bits to represent the various gods would be cool too. Furies, but with options for insect wings (Nurgle), two handed axes (Khorne) etc. would be a kit that could sell to all four daemon factions

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