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Just looking at the new points layout.

I'm right in thinking if its not an option in the pts list its free right? For example you can give an entire unit of terminators chainfists and they cost the same as if they kept their power fists.

 Latro_ wrote:
Just looking at the new points layout.

I'm right in thinking if its not an option in the pts list its free right? For example you can give an entire unit of terminators chainfists and they cost the same as if they kept their power fists.

Yes, it looks that way.

For that specific example, it makes sense to me with how they've balanced the weapons pretty evenly.

I wouldnt be surprised if there are a few mistakes with all this that get FAQd in a couple of weeks though!

Yep. Not mentioned, no cost. Note also base cost　is cheapest loadout which isn't always default loadout on datasheet

yea the points on a landspeeder typoon were confusing at first.

tneva82 wrote:
Yep. Not mentioned, no cost. Note also base cost　is cheapest loadout which isn't always default loadout on datasheet

I think they're doing that on purpose. Instead of Default on the cheapest options, it defaults to their preferred setup, and pays for a lot of those "free" swaps because you're switching to something actually cheaper and not getting the refund. This is probably a step along the way towards retiring points for Power Level.

I'm really not sure what both of you are refering to, though - the LS Typhoon has just a single option that costs points, and thats a MM. How is this confusing, and how is there a cheaper loadout than the default one? Isn't it "Typhoon launcher plus Heavy bolter, unless you upgrade it to Heavy Flamer or Multimelta"? (I don't have my codex yet, just based on what I saw in reviews)

nekooni wrote:
I'm really not sure what both of you are refering to, though - the LS Typhoon has just a single option that costs points, and thats a MM. How is this confusing, and how is there a cheaper loadout than the default one? Isn't it "Typhoon launcher plus Heavy bolter, unless you upgrade it to Heavy Flamer or Multimelta"? (I don't have my codex yet, just based on what I saw in reviews)

No the old Landspeeder datasheet has been split into three, Land Speeder, Tornado, Typhoon.


And the default This Model Comes With X, but you can swap to Y stuff aren't necessarily what was the default before, and it's not necessarily the cheapest option. For Example, and I'm going to make something up so as not to break Dakka rules and give away GW points/rules lets say you want a Terminator Squad. The Default now might be Everyone starts with Stormbolters and Chain Fists. You can swap to a Power Fist for free. Sure the Powerfist is usually cheaper than the Chainfist, so free actually costs you points you normally would have been refunded.

So now Terminators have an increased PL to account for a higher points cost compared to last edition because they now default with chainfists. Continuing the made up example, lets say chainfists are 20 points and Powerfists are 15. So over the course of four Terminators you spend 20 extra points, 1 PL = 20 points, Terminators go up a PL. That's what I mean by feeling like this is another step on the shift to power level. The more "free" "upgrades" you get in points the less difference there is between PL and Points.

PL in 8e was not generally calculated based on the default loadout, it was more often correlated to the 'average' loadout.

Look at devastators as an example of this.

 Stux wrote:
PL in 8e was not generally calculated based on the default loadout, it was more often correlated to the 'average' loadout.

Look at devastators as an example of this.

The point is making more options “free” because you’re paying default points for something more expensive and not getting a refund brings us closer to PL not points.

Breton wrote:

 Stux wrote:
PL in 8e was not generally calculated based on the default loadout, it was more often correlated to the 'average' loadout.

Look at devastators as an example of this.

The point is making more options “free” because you’re paying default points for something more expensive and not getting a refund brings us closer to PL not points.

Eh, MFM2020 made Power Fists and Chainfists the same cost.

And with the changes to the profiles of Power Fists and Chainfists in the new codex, it actually makes sense for the two weapons to be the same cost, as they are now sidegrades, rather than having the Chainfist be better in 99.9% of cases.

Do you have an actual (as opposed to hypothetical) example of a default loadout where you can get something "more expensive" for free? No need for details, just a unit name.

Breton wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I'm really not sure what both of you are refering to, though - the LS Typhoon has just a single option that costs points, and thats a MM. How is this confusing, and how is there a cheaper loadout than the default one? Isn't it "Typhoon launcher plus Heavy bolter, unless you upgrade it to Heavy Flamer or Multimelta"? (I don't have my codex yet, just based on what I saw in reviews)

No the old Landspeeder datasheet has been split into three, Land Speeder, Tornado, Typhoon.


And the default This Model Comes With X, but you can swap to Y stuff aren't necessarily what was the default before, and it's not necessarily the cheapest option. For Example, and I'm going to make something up so as not to break Dakka rules and give away GW points/rules lets say you want a Terminator Squad. The Default now might be Everyone starts with Stormbolters and Chain Fists. You can swap to a Power Fist for free. Sure the Powerfist is usually cheaper than the Chainfist, so free actually costs you points you normally would have been refunded.

So now Terminators have an increased PL to account for a higher points cost compared to last edition because they now default with chainfists. Continuing the made up example, lets say chainfists are 20 points and Powerfists are 15. So over the course of four Terminators you spend 20 extra points, 1 PL = 20 points, Terminators go up a PL. That's what I mean by feeling like this is another step on the shift to power level. The more "free" "upgrades" you get in points the less difference there is between PL and Points.

Yes, I know that the LS was split up, but the default loadout for the variants is the cheapest loadout. I even gave you the Typhoon as an example of how the default loadout for a LS Typhoon is the cheapest loadout possible for that variant - so I really do not understand why you'd say "No", especially without any kind of explanation.

Regarding your made up example:
- Power fists and Chain fists were rebalanced and are now equal cost , so swapping those is just a sidegrade now.
- A man needs a name. Just tell me which unit has a cheaper loadout than the default loadout, I can look it up myself then. That's clearly not breaking any rules.

The only example I’m personally aware of is from the Necron book: the Annihilation Barge data sheet says it comes with a Gauss something and can swap to a Tesla doodad.
In the points section, the only thing listed apart from the base cost is the Gauss variant.
So the “default” load-out costs more than the base price.

nekooni wrote:

Breton wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I'm really not sure what both of you are refering to, though - the LS Typhoon has just a single option that costs points, and thats a MM. How is this confusing, and how is there a cheaper loadout than the default one? Isn't it "Typhoon launcher plus Heavy bolter, unless you upgrade it to Heavy Flamer or Multimelta"? (I don't have my codex yet, just based on what I saw in reviews)

No the old Landspeeder datasheet has been split into three, Land Speeder, Tornado, Typhoon.


And the default This Model Comes With X, but you can swap to Y stuff aren't necessarily what was the default before, and it's not necessarily the cheapest option. For Example, and I'm going to make something up so as not to break Dakka rules and give away GW points/rules lets say you want a Terminator Squad. The Default now might be Everyone starts with Stormbolters and Chain Fists. You can swap to a Power Fist for free. Sure the Powerfist is usually cheaper than the Chainfist, so free actually costs you points you normally would have been refunded.

So now Terminators have an increased PL to account for a higher points cost compared to last edition because they now default with chainfists. Continuing the made up example, lets say chainfists are 20 points and Powerfists are 15. So over the course of four Terminators you spend 20 extra points, 1 PL = 20 points, Terminators go up a PL. That's what I mean by feeling like this is another step on the shift to power level. The more "free" "upgrades" you get in points the less difference there is between PL and Points.

Yes, I know that the LS was split up, but the default loadout for the variants is the cheapest loadout. I even gave you the Typhoon as an example of how the default loadout for a LS Typhoon is the cheapest loadout possible for that variant - so I really do not understand why you'd say "No", especially without any kind of explanation.

Regarding your made up example:
- Power fists and Chain fists were rebalanced and are now equal cost , so swapping those is just a sidegrade now.
- A man needs a name. Just tell me which unit has a cheaper loadout than the default loadout, I can look it up myself then. That's clearly not breaking any rules.

I realize they're an even swap now, that's one reason why I made sure to point out it was a made up example. Not that it mattered.
Two examples of what I'm talking about are:

Tornado with Heavy Flamer. The Default for Tornado is HB/AC, but the price for an AC is a points cost upgrade to the base cost of the model.

And Drop Pod then to now. Drop Pod with Deathwind (the more expensive option) in CA2020 is the same price as the Drop Pod now with either choice. They bumped it to the top price and now the "cheaper" loadout is a free swap not a "refund" swap.

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Yep. Not mentioned, no cost. Note also base cost　is cheapest loadout which isn't always default loadout on datasheet

I think they're doing that on purpose. Instead of Default on the cheapest options, it defaults to their preferred setup, and pays for a lot of those "free" swaps because you're switching to something actually cheaper and not getting the refund. This is probably a step along the way towards retiring points for Power Level.

I'm more inclined to believe this is a step towards power level in the sense that "expensive" upgrades are no longer "free" in that the points cost are now baked into PL. You can choose to "downgrade" but it wont net you PL 'refunds'.