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Hey mates. Waiting for my new SM Codex to come in, however I have been able to gather a lot of information regarding various units and I noticed something particular regarding Terminators. Is there any reason why Relic Terminators are a few points cheaper base than the standard Terminators in 9th edition? And while I know that they combined the Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators into Relic Terminators, is there anything that makes them stand out more now or did they remove that?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 00:42:26


 
   
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 Ironwolf45 wrote:
Hey mates. Waiting for my new SM Codex to come in, however I have been able to gather a lot of information regarding various units and I noticed something particular regarding Terminators. Is there any reason why Relic Terminators are a few points cheaper base than the standard Terminators in 9th edition? And while I know that they combined the Cataphractii and Tartaros Terminators into Relic Terminators, is there anything that makes them stand out more now or did they remove that?


It depends what they're armed with. Remember, you have to pay points for anything in the unit entry that has a point cost.
So a Relic Terminator with combi bolter and power fist is 34+5 = 39, actually a point more than a Terminator with storm bolter and powerfist (base cost of 38, no extra cost charge for fists)

---
With one exception: If you keep both sergeants with power swords, the terminator sgt is still 38 points, but the relic terminator sergeant stays at 34, since power swords don't have a cost for either unit
* caveat- I've got the points in front of me, but not the datasheets. Its entirely possible that neither starts with a power sword by default anymore.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 01:19:15


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Stevenage, UK

Well spotted Voss, I missed that too. Though that seemingly makes the Relic Terminators a single point more expensive, for what looks like no real reason...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 01:20:30


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Yeah, I expect there's going to be a lot of weirdness for people until the new system gels.

Both in terms of things you have to pay for now, even though they're default equipment, and things that are free (which includes storm shields for terminators)


Also, scouts bizarrely inherited a new pile of gear. I expect a lot of it is Sgt. only, but they may have also inherited the wolf scout loadout.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 01:29:41


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Voss wrote:
Yeah, I expect there's going to be a lot of weirdness for people until the new system gels.

Both in terms of things you have to pay for now, even though they're default equipment, and things that are free (which includes storm shields for terminators)


Also, scouts bizarrely inherited a new pile of gear. I expect a lot of it is Sgt. only, but they may have also inherited the wolf scout loadout.


Be careful a lot of units have If from this chapter, then A, if from That chapter then B and it’s not always in the unit entry. GW doesn’t write these things the way that always makes sense to me, so even more than before I miss the electronic version you could have the computer search for you.

As for Relic vs “Indomitus” Pattern Terminator, all chapters can mix and match close combat weapons in Reic units, only DA can do it in “normal” Terminators and technically their a Deathwing squads aren’t even “normal”, they’re their own data sheet.

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Voss wrote:

Also, scouts bizarrely inherited a new pile of gear. I expect a lot of it is Sgt. only, but they may have also inherited the wolf scout loadout.
What did scouts get?

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 Insectum7 wrote:
Voss wrote:

Also, scouts bizarrely inherited a new pile of gear. I expect a lot of it is Sgt. only, but they may have also inherited the wolf scout loadout.
What did scouts get?


On the points list they have a lot of options. In the Datasheet you see that's a very limited upgrade.

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Stevenage, UK

Voss had the right idea - the Scout options on the points list cover everything that the Sergeant can take, plus a couple of oddball Space Wolves-specific options on the datasheet.

I hadn't considered Relic Terminators getting to mix and match weapon role types... given the system's leaning towards single function units, and the fact that "shooty" Terminators carry a power fist anyway, I don't know if that's really an advantage any more though...?

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
Voss had the right idea - the Scout options on the points list cover everything that the Sergeant can take, plus a couple of oddball Space Wolves-specific options on the datasheet.

I hadn't considered Relic Terminators getting to mix and match weapon role types... given the system's leaning towards single function units, and the fact that "shooty" Terminators carry a power fist anyway, I don't know if that's really an advantage any more though...?


I don't know. I liked it how it was better, but 3 SB/PF dudes (or 2 and 1Sgt with a Power Sword) one AC or Cyclone/PF dude, and one TH/SS or 2LC dude doesn't sound bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course, 8 TH/SS or 2LC or 4/4 THSS/2LC dudes and 2 Reaper AC dudes sounds expensive as all get out, but it also sounds cool.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/12 09:06:12


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UK

Combi-bolter/lightning claw for the whole squad looks like a decent cheap all rounder option now that claws give +1 attack per claw - you would only be paying the base price per model and could put out a decent quantity of attacks in both the shooting and fight phases.

I would probably stump up a few extra points though and go all combi-bolter/chainfist plus grenade launcher just for the threat of lots of flat 3 damage on vehicles.
   
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Stevenage, UK

Insularum wrote:
Combi-bolter/lightning claw for the whole squad looks like a decent cheap all rounder option now that claws give +1 attack per claw - you would only be paying the base price per model and could put out a decent quantity of attacks in both the shooting and fight phases.

That's actually a really good shout against horde armies... I'm specifically thinking Orks or Zerg-style Nids, but I'm sure it works for some others too.
The way that horde factions get very low, if any, AP on most units coupled with the extra Wound makes Terminators an attractive prospect compared to, say, Intercessors... and the lower Strength of the claw compared to the fist won't make much difference against those opponents, whereas the extra attacks absolutely will.

Of course, it's not like the book is exactly hurting for anti-horde options - this just seems like a really durable one.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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I've been thinking about this a little more, and am now thinking that the chainfist is now the outright best terminator close combat weapon - to the extent that the relic terminator squad with all chainfist/combi bolters is now going to be my go to terminator squad over both tactical and assault terminators.

Logic behind this is that the high AP on the chainfist more than makes up for the flat damage of the hammer against most targets. As an example - attacking a 2W space marine in power armour, with just one attack both weapons appear to be the same:

Power armour giving a 5+ save against the hammer (1/3 chance of survival by passing armour save)
Chainfist ignores power armour entirely, but D3 damage might roll a 1 (1/3 chance of survival by fluffling the damage roll)

However, as soon as you are throwing more than just 1 attack, you realise that the single damage from the chainfist carries over, whereas the marine suffered no damage at all from the hammer. On the second/subsequent attacks, the hammer has the same chance of failure as before, but the chainfist will autokill even if it rolls low on damage again - so 5 terminators with chainfists will tend to outperform 5 with hammers in the fight phase, and will always do better in the shooting phase due to actually having a gun.
   
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Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

Insularum wrote:
I've been thinking about this a little more, and am now thinking that the chainfist is now the outright best terminator close combat weapon - to the extent that the relic terminator squad with all chainfist/combi bolters is now going to be my go to terminator squad over both tactical and assault terminators.

Logic behind this is that the high AP on the chainfist more than makes up for the flat damage of the hammer against most targets. As an example - attacking a 2W space marine in power armour, with just one attack both weapons appear to be the same:

Power armour giving a 5+ save against the hammer (1/3 chance of survival by passing armour save)
Chainfist ignores power armour entirely, but D3 damage might roll a 1 (1/3 chance of survival by fluffling the damage roll)

However, as soon as you are throwing more than just 1 attack, you realise that the single damage from the chainfist carries over, whereas the marine suffered no damage at all from the hammer. On the second/subsequent attacks, the hammer has the same chance of failure as before, but the chainfist will autokill even if it rolls low on damage again - so 5 terminators with chainfists will tend to outperform 5 with hammers in the fight phase, and will always do better in the shooting phase due to actually having a gun.


Plus theres no need to find hammer bits! I love this idea and a chainfist is one brutal weapon both looks and ruleswise

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I too am glad the chainfist has found a "raison d'être" once again. It was always one of those cool things that gave 40k its unique flavour back in the day, much like chainswords or Terminator armour.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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Insularum wrote:
I've been thinking about this a little more, and am now thinking that the chainfist is now the outright best terminator close combat weapon - to the extent that the relic terminator squad with all chainfist/combi bolters is now going to be my go to terminator squad over both tactical and assault terminators.

Logic behind this is that the high AP on the chainfist more than makes up for the flat damage of the hammer against most targets. As an example - attacking a 2W space marine in power armour, with just one attack both weapons appear to be the same:

Power armour giving a 5+ save against the hammer (1/3 chance of survival by passing armour save)
Chainfist ignores power armour entirely, but D3 damage might roll a 1 (1/3 chance of survival by fluffling the damage roll)

However, as soon as you are throwing more than just 1 attack, you realise that the single damage from the chainfist carries over, whereas the marine suffered no damage at all from the hammer. On the second/subsequent attacks, the hammer has the same chance of failure as before, but the chainfist will autokill even if it rolls low on damage again - so 5 terminators with chainfists will tend to outperform 5 with hammers in the fight phase, and will always do better in the shooting phase due to actually having a gun.


Be careful, youre merging Statistical probability with "The Dice Have No Memory" which is a good thing to remember, but not a good thing to confuse probabilities.

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Upstate, New York

If going with a stormbolter/chainfist squad, why relics over tactical terminators?

Relics still pay an extra point per model.

The question is are you taking any of the other options in the squad to warrant that upcharge?

Heavy options? Both get the HF, relics the reaper, tacs the AsC or the CML.
Grenade harness? Not sure that’s worth the 5 points you pay for it, much less the extra PPM for the squad.
Sarge options? Volkite or plasma? The ability to actually take a chainfist on the sarge? Some potential here.

And you loose the option for the homer with the relics.

I like chainfists. I always included one in the squad back when there were armor values. They were like melta bombs. Wasted 5 points most of the time, but that one game where you need that tank reduced to rubble, they delivered.

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 Nevelon wrote:
If going with a stormbolter/chainfist squad, why relics over tactical terminators?

Relics still pay an extra point per model.

The question is are you taking any of the other options in the squad to warrant that upcharge?

Why relics over normal? Because normal terminators cannot upgrade the sergeant's power sword.

Why pay +1 point per model for relics? There is no discount on the normal terminator sergeant, he is 5 points overcosted for having a cheap sword, 5 relic terminators with all chainfists costs the same as what the theoretical price for normal terminators would be if the sergeant could take upgrades.

The other unique options (grenade launcher mainly but also i guess the sergeant guns) are ok i guess - these would be point filler choices for me; just the ability to take a proper heavy power weapon is enough to swing it in favour of the relic squad.
   
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Insularum wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
If going with a stormbolter/chainfist squad, why relics over tactical terminators?

Relics still pay an extra point per model.

The question is are you taking any of the other options in the squad to warrant that upcharge?

Why relics over normal? Because normal terminators cannot upgrade the sergeant's power sword.

Why pay +1 point per model for relics? There is no discount on the normal terminator sergeant, he is 5 points overcosted for having a cheap sword, 5 relic terminators with all chainfists costs the same as what the theoretical price for normal terminators would be if the sergeant could take upgrades.

The other unique options (grenade launcher mainly but also i guess the sergeant guns) are ok i guess - these would be point filler choices for me; just the ability to take a proper heavy power weapon is enough to swing it in favour of the relic squad.


That’s fair. I forgot the fact that the sarge in the normal squad is charged for a fist despite just having a sword. That evens things out. At least for 5 man squads (which is what is going to hit the field)

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You could do Honored Sergeant and Master Craft the Power Sword. That's not bad.

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Upstate, New York

Breton wrote:
You could do Honored Sergeant and Master Craft the Power Sword. That's not bad.


Seems to be gilding the lily a bit. In a squad already full of CC crumping, is it worth the CP to boost the sarge up to a slightly better level? Do you have better things to do with that CP?

Just thinking aloud here, It might be worth it, just on first glance, I’d probably say no.

Although you mentioning that strat reminds me that it could be used in crusade lists, if you are willing to spend the RPs and watch you crusade level skyrocket.

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 Nevelon wrote:
Breton wrote:
You could do Honored Sergeant and Master Craft the Power Sword. That's not bad.


Seems to be gilding the lily a bit. In a squad already full of CC crumping, is it worth the CP to boost the sarge up to a slightly better level? Do you have better things to do with that CP?

Just thinking aloud here, It might be worth it, just on first glance, I’d probably say no.

Although you mentioning that strat reminds me that it could be used in crusade lists, if you are willing to spend the RPs and watch you crusade level skyrocket.


1D to 2D is a fairly large upgrade from what I've seen. 2D on a CCW that doesn't -1 to hit especially on the model with more A per model. I think it costs 1CP or so to do for a more accurate but slightly weaker power fist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sadly, the Pair of Lightning Claws is two weapons each a claw instead of one weapon being a pair of, so you can't Master Craft the pair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/17 15:02:33


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
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Upstate, New York

Breton wrote:
 Nevelon wrote:
Breton wrote:
You could do Honored Sergeant and Master Craft the Power Sword. That's not bad.


Seems to be gilding the lily a bit. In a squad already full of CC crumping, is it worth the CP to boost the sarge up to a slightly better level? Do you have better things to do with that CP?

Just thinking aloud here, It might be worth it, just on first glance, I’d probably say no.

Although you mentioning that strat reminds me that it could be used in crusade lists, if you are willing to spend the RPs and watch you crusade level skyrocket.


1D to 2D is a fairly large upgrade from what I've seen. 2D on a CCW that doesn't -1 to hit especially on the model with more A per model. I think it costs 1CP or so to do for a more accurate but slightly weaker power fist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sadly, the Pair of Lightning Claws is two weapons each a claw instead of one weapon being a pair of, so you can't Master Craft the pair.


I’m not arguing that it would not be nice to have, but is it worth the CP investment? Would you be better off saving that CP for Fury of the First? While the two are not mutually exclusive, CP are a finite resource. And that just two options for this unit, not counting other places in your list you could spend them.

How much damage is the unit going to do when it slams into something with the sarge being upgraded, vs. how many without? I suspect the squad is going to be doing most of the heavy lifting, with the sarge just a little bit on top.

If you want to squeeze as much power as you can out of the squad, sure. But I think there is going to be better return on your investment for the CP elsewhere.

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 Nevelon wrote:


How much damage is the unit going to do when it slams into something with the sarge being upgraded, vs. how many without? I suspect the squad is going to be doing most of the heavy lifting, with the sarge just a little bit on top.

If you want to squeeze as much power as you can out of the squad, sure. But I think there is going to be better return on your investment for the CP elsewhere.


I don't know, maybe I'm undervaluing CP., but its easy to start with 12 instead of stretching your FOC and options to generate those 12, most of the list building costs went to points instead, you get one per round in the command phase, Calgar/Guilliman give you 2/3 extras, plus being able to refund one per round or so from the warlord trait... Feels like it's easier to spend them now.

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