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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Currently building up Imperial Fists and I have 2 questions:

1) Intercessor wargear
-What is the best melee weapon for the intercessor sergeants? I have 1 sergeant with a power fist, what should I give the second one? I have the bits for a second powerfist, chainsword or thunder hammer.
-What is the best version of the bolt rifle to give intercessors? Currently I have x2 5 man squads, 1 has auto bolt rifles, 1 has stalkers (heard these aren't great now), is it worth changing out either loadouts?
-Are the grenade launchers still worth it?

2) HQ choices?
I have Tor Garadon, and an Indomitus lieutenant, (I'm also running an apothecary) should I add a second lieutenant? If so I was considering a master crafted auto bolt rifle.
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Intercessor melee: I'd suggest sticking to the powerfists. You definitely want a multi-damage option, but I don't think the thunderhammer is as necessary of an upgrade anymore with the price hike/AP drop.
Intercessor rifles: The buffs in the v2 book make it harder to pick one out as just better; which one you want depends on what kind of saves you're expecting to run up against (auto bolt rifle for mostly poor saves, stalker bolt rifle for lots of multi-wound good saves, and normal bolt rifle is the all-rounder). The mix is probably more down to personal preference than not.
I'd still take the grenade launchers; they aren't massively powerful but they extend what you can attack effectively with the unit and can be fired in addition to your bolt rifles now.

On HQs: 9e tends to reward stacking a bunch of different buffs more than getting redundant buffs in wider areas. I might suggest getting a Chaplain if you want another HQ to open up more options there.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





1)
Power Fist and Thunder Hammer are probably pretty close and you can't go wrong either way.

Its probably worth it to swap the Stalker out. The other two are 6 of one, a half dozen of the other.

Grenade Launchers are absolutely worth it now that they're assault, you can fire them in addition to the bolt rifle, and you can fire both (assuming you've met the requirements for 2.

2) That's going to be pretty dependent on what else you're running and personal preference.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Thunder Hammer is better if you need the extra damage, fist is better if you dont. So the question for me would be: do you expect to fighting W3 models fairly often? Eg Gravis or Custodes. If yes, take the hammer. If not, you're probably better off with the fist. If you're on the fence, probably go fist as its cheaper. But Gravis is likely to be very popular this edition, so bare that in mind.

Autos are still my favourite bolt rifle. I just like the mobility and weight of shots. Stalkers have a place, but if you are fighting a lot of 1W models they are quite a bit worse. That said, all marines going to 2W should mean you usually have viable targets. But even then, autos pull their wait. Regular bolt rifles dont really do it for me. They're not bad, but I dont think they have much of a niche between the other two options.

Grenade launchers are good, take them. You dont lose any bolter shots for firing it now, and frag got blast.

Two lieutenants is likely not worth it. HQ slots are a premium in 9e, and you risk situations where they become redundant. Consider a chaplain or librarian if you want another HQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/17 20:54:48


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

I think the fist and the hammer are a coin toss these days. But the hammer costs twice as much. So fist. If/when GW looks at things and adjusts the points, it will be more of a debate IMHO. Power sword is classic and cheep, and still makes use of all the attacks. You want something on them for CC, at least for squads going out for objectives. The odds of you needing to mix it up are high. Magnets, of course, is the easy long term answer.

I think the rapid fire rifles are generally a solid go-to choice, but there is a place for all of them these days, depending on overall list and expected foes. I’d not swap out models, but if you added another squad or two, I’d go with the basics.

Now that you can fire the GL in addition to the rifle, go for it.

I’d not double up on the LT. Go for a third option. Plenty of good ones.

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Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Seems a couple people might be missing the fact that a second Lieutenant doesn't actually take up another HQ slot. You still get 2-for-1 that way.
So if you're taking one, it's absolutely worth taking a second, especially for fists where you're likely taking lots of bolters and particularly with mention of Intercessors. It's not like the extra Lieutenant is that expensive, and you get to spread their buffs around more.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I'd say Power Fist or Power Sword (If you can swing the bits or convert); with flat 2 on the fists now they're one of the best options.

I, like Stux, really like Auto Bolt Rifles especially if you're spending points on melee gear for the sarge. I'm also a fan of Stalkers as well; but ABRs and regular BRs are, generally, your better options these days.

The grenade launchers were terrible before; but since they are, now, assault weapons they are quite worth the extra few points imo.

I'd probably lean towards the ABR Lt. and boost into the relic one. It's a very good little gun. Have him escort your ABR Intercessors (who you might want to make into Vets if you can spare the loss of a troop and support another elite choice).

   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





you guiys realize that in terms of HQ slots Lts are "two for the price of one" right?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







BrianDavion wrote:
you guiys realize that in terms of HQ slots Lts are "two for the price of one" right?


Given that there are three HQ slots in the Battalion I remain confident in recommending a third sort of HQ instead of another Lieutenant.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
you guiys realize that in terms of HQ slots Lts are "two for the price of one" right?


Given that there are three HQ slots in the Battalion I remain confident in recommending a third sort of HQ instead of another Lieutenant.


my point is if he's taking a leuitenant ANYWAY, the point is you can get it for free.

1 Captain, 1 Librarian and 2 leuitenants is a 100% viable HQ loadout for battalions. thus if he's taking 1 leuitant already, he's not giving up a FOC slot by taking a second.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







BrianDavion wrote:
...my point is if he's taking a leuitenant ANYWAY, the point is you can get it for free...


...You know the second LT still costs points, right?

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
...my point is if he's taking a leuitenant ANYWAY, the point is you can get it for free...


...You know the second LT still costs points, right?



Maybe but it sounded to me like you where concerned with FOC slots.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Bearing in mind this is Fists we're talking about - if we're talking about a traditional bolter-and-heavy-weapon loadout (and from the mention of Intercessors, it sounds like it is) then I'd argue that the two LT's are going to be more useful than a Chaplain. However, if there's more in the way of assault-focused units then fair enough, go ahead and swap the LT's out.
It's worth bearing in mind though, that OP has already said that they already have that first Lt.
Agreed that the Captain and Librarian are a good idea for the other slots, and Tor Garadon in particular is a nice choice.

...are we really suggesting that that second Lt isn't worth 75 points?! It's one of the cheapest units in the book, you can't even get 5 more Intercessors by not taking him. So trying to claim points as a reason not to take him makes no sense to me.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:
Bearing in mind this is Fists we're talking about - if we're talking about a traditional bolter-and-heavy-weapon loadout (and from the mention of Intercessors, it sounds like it is) then I'd argue that the two LT's are going to be more useful than a Chaplain. However, if there's more in the way of assault-focused units then fair enough, go ahead and swap the LT's out.
It's worth bearing in mind though, that OP has already said that they already have that first Lt.
Agreed that the Captain and Librarian are a good idea for the other slots, and Tor Garadon in particular is a nice choice.

...are we really suggesting that that second Lt isn't worth 75 points?! It's one of the cheapest units in the book, you can't even get 5 more Intercessors by not taking him. So trying to claim points as a reason not to take him makes no sense to me.


Chaplains have shooting Litanies too now. If you do it "right", you'd have a bubble of:

Reroll 1's to hit.
Reroll 1's to wound
Add 1 to the hit roll
Add 1 to the wound roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah to give a couple units that kind of bubble, I'd skip a second lieutenant (ha ha) and use those points plus some skimmed from somewhere else for a Chaplain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/18 11:50:17


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





 AnomanderRake wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
you guiys realize that in terms of HQ slots Lts are "two for the price of one" right?


Given that there are three HQ slots in the Battalion I remain confident in recommending a third sort of HQ instead of another Lieutenant.


You recommended a chaplain, does the primaris one from indomitus work or is another variant better, also I have the Lieutenant from the box as well, how does he stack up against a regular primaris lieutenant w/ master crafted bolt rifle? (I could build one from my bits box)
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






I think the primaris lieutenant with the shield is easily the best loadout. Couple of extra bolter shots will not matter in an army full of bolters. That shield will however keep the lieutenant alive and thus keep the buff up. And of course with the master crafted sword he is pretty decent in melee too.

And the chaplain variant depends on who you want them to be buffing. If it is footsloggers then the footslogging chaplain is fine, but if you need to keep up with some fast assault elements then the new biker variant would be the way to go.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest





Stevenage, UK

Breton wrote:
Chaplains have shooting Litanies too now. If you do it "right", you'd have a bubble of:
Reroll 1's to hit.
Reroll 1's to wound
Add 1 to the hit roll
Add 1 to the wound roll.


My thinking here is that the Lt's are a better bet for bolter-focused Fists, specifically. In most other Marine lists, you'd be right. But it's getting to approaching the old-school "deathstar" where you've got all your power focused on one part of the battlefield, and that's only going to help you take one objective at a time.
I will admit that it's a close enough call that it entirely depends on the rest of your list, and what you're likely to be up against.

For instance, I'd want to take the Chaplain if I knew I'd be facing hard-hitting elite infantry like Custodes or Deathwing, for that extra close-combat punch and also those extra re-rolls in order to alpha-strike the hard hitters, knowing that my opponent's ability to take the rest of the board is reduced as a result. Deathstar vs deathstar, if you will.
But against horde armies, I'd rather spread the love so that I don't overkill in one area, while losing out in 2 or 3 others.

...not so much of an issue now given the new Oratory strat, but - I do find Lt's to be a bit more reliable too, considering the Litanies roll is not a certainty.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/18 13:58:45


"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge





Upstate, New York

 Crimson wrote:
I think the primaris lieutenant with the shield is easily the best loadout. Couple of extra bolter shots will not matter in an army full of bolters. That shield will however keep the lieutenant alive and thus keep the buff up. And of course with the master crafted sword he is pretty decent in melee too.

And the chaplain variant depends on who you want them to be buffing. If it is footsloggers then the footslogging chaplain is fine, but if you need to keep up with some fast assault elements then the new biker variant would be the way to go.


I agree on the SS Lt. He is part of the army as a force multiplier. His job is not to personally kill things, but to enable the rest of your army to kill things better. Keeping him alive to do that should be the priority. Anything he kills himself is just gravy. And it’s not like the Volkite pistol and MC sword are shabby.

The bike chaplain looks like a solid investment for the points. He’s 30 more than the footslogger, and that gets you 2 bolt rifles, 2 wounds, a point of toughness, and a big movement boost. The drawback is the loss if the infantry keyword (which can affect a few things) and the inability to get in transports (mostly irrelevant)

If you already have the chaplain from the box, there is also the issue of do you want to spend the $45 for the new guy on the bike, or invest that into other spots in your collection. Of course, he looks awesome, but that can be said about most chaplains.

Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 13K+ Slowly growing 3Kish
Nevelon's Workbench: Ultramarines, Saim-Hann and other assorted oddities

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Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





 Super Ready wrote:
Breton wrote:
Chaplains have shooting Litanies too now. If you do it "right", you'd have a bubble of:
Reroll 1's to hit.
Reroll 1's to wound
Add 1 to the hit roll
Add 1 to the wound roll.


My thinking here is that the Lt's are a better bet for bolter-focused Fists, specifically. In most other Marine lists, you'd be right. But it's getting to approaching the old-school "deathstar" where you've got all your power focused on one part of the battlefield, and that's only going to help you take one objective at a time.
I will admit that it's a close enough call that it entirely depends on the rest of your list, and what you're likely to be up against.

For instance, I'd want to take the Chaplain if I knew I'd be facing hard-hitting elite infantry like Custodes or Deathwing, for that extra close-combat punch and also those extra re-rolls in order to alpha-strike the hard hitters, knowing that my opponent's ability to take the rest of the board is reduced as a result. Deathstar vs deathstar, if you will.
But against horde armies, I'd rather spread the love so that I don't overkill in one area, while losing out in 2 or 3 others.

...not so much of an issue now given the new Oratory strat, but - I do find Lt's to be a bit more reliable too, considering the Litanies roll is not a certainty.


I just looked at the Matched Play missions in the book, many of them have most or all objectives within 12" of a center point. You can put your death ball on that center point, advance ObSec to the objectives, and get both worlds. Stick some Aggressors/Devs/Inceptors/Bikes/etc/you/get/the/idea on that center point, run troops to the objectives. You give your opponent another stress point to need to aim at that doesn't even get them VP's (in theory) and you get to shoot them almost off the objective just before your Assault Intercessors charge in and finish them. It gets nastier with IF. Their Bolt rule doesn't specify Rapid Fire Bolt anymore (that may have changed a while ago and I didn't know) but now Aggressors, Inceptors, Assault bolters, and so on get it as well making that hold the center death ball even better when using high ROF "elites" to take down objectives prior to an Assault Intercessor charge.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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