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Spesifics counters general rules. The SW stratagem Counter-Charge says:

Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Charge phase. Select one Space Wolves unit from your army. Until the end of that phase
•
That unit can perform a Heroic Intervention as if it were a Character.
•
That unit can perform a Heroic Intervention if there are any enemy units within 6" of it, instead of 3", and when doing so can move up to 6" instead of 3".

So does this mean I can pile on the drop pod? While it has no attack profile it would stil bad touch shooting units?

Immobile: After this model has been set up on the battlefield it cannot move for any reason, and no units can embark aboard it.

The drop pod has the above rule stating that it cannot move for any reason. If you use a stratagem to make it heroically intervene then it moved for a reason, which is forbidden.

it can not move the requisite 3 inches, though

But spesific trumps non spesific no?

Precisely ... the datasheet is more specific to that particular model then a generic rule for the chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My bigger concern is that the marine dex actually doesnt seem to have an immobile rule... am i just missing it ?

 Type40 wrote:
My bigger concern is that the marine dex actually doesnt seem to have an immobile rule... am i just missing it ?

No, drop pods in the new Marine Codex don't have any rule that explicitly forbids them from moving on their datasheet - but they do have '-' for their Move characteristic. This is covered by the core rules:
"If a model has a Move characteristic of '-', it is unable to move at all."
For what it's worth, this is the case for the Hammerfall bunker too.

...I almost thought it was actually possible to move the drop pod, for a moment. That would have been hilarious.

Ah,,, that makes much more sense lol ... do you have a page number for the M "-" = no move at all ? I remember reading it, i just cant find it XD . @super ready

Under characteristics models without movement are unable to move at all. (Under characteristics.)

Models move up their mocement. (Under movement.)

Heroic intervention lets a character move 3. (Under heroic intervebtion.)

Now the stratagem clearny states a model can heroic intercebt, and that should trump the geberal rule under characteristics. Movement in heroic intervention is not depending on a characters move characteristic. It is a flat 3.

 Niiai wrote:
Under characteristics models without movement are unable to move at all. (Under characteristics.)

Models move up their mocement. (Under movement.)

Heroic intervention lets a character move 3. (Under heroic intervebtion.)

Now the stratagem clearny states a model can heroic intercebt, and that should trump the geberal rule under characteristics. Movement in heroic intervention is not depending on a characters move characteristic. It is a flat 3.

A Heroic Intervention is a type of move. The movement characteristic of "-" explicitly imparts an inability to move under any circumstances. Therefore, it cannot under any circumstances Heroically Intervene

Sterling191 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Under characteristics models without movement are unable to move at all. (Under characteristics.)

Models move up their mocement. (Under movement.)

Heroic intervention lets a character move 3. (Under heroic intervebtion.)

Now the stratagem clearny states a model can heroic intercebt, and that should trump the geberal rule under characteristics. Movement in heroic intervention is not depending on a characters move characteristic. It is a flat 3.

A Heroic Intervention is a type of move. The movement characteristic of "-" explicitly imparts an inability to move under any circumstances. Therefore, it cannot under any circumstances Heroically Intervene

Yes and the stratagem clearly says that they are allowed to do this action as if they where a character. It even allows it up tp 6".

 Type40 wrote:
Ah,,, that makes much more sense lol ... do you have a page number for the M "-" = no move at all ? I remember reading it, i just cant find it XD . @super ready

Sure, it's page 202 in the big Core book, page 7 in the free PDF version. Under 'Profiles', section 4.

Some other interesting tidbits I realised while looking this up:
- you can make a Drop Pod your Warlord. While it can't gain a Warlord trait as a result, this does technically mean that it gets to call down Orbital Bombardments.
- the Drop Pod can take advantage of the Space Wolves stratagem 'Knowledge of the Foe'. Good to know that pods know how to "make full use of their Omophagea". They can also use the Black Templars' stratagem to 'Abhor the Witch' and deny psychic powers...

 Niiai wrote:
Yes and the stratagem clearly says that they are allowed to do this action as if they where a character. It even allows it up tp 6".

While the stratagem doesn't mention it directly, Heroic Interventions are noted as a move multiple times, so it's pretty clear. Page 225 in the big book, page 20 on the free PDF.
"When a unit performs a Heroic Intervention, you can move each model in that unit up to 3" – this is a Heroic Intervention move. Each model in the unit must finish its Heroic Intervention move closer to the closest enemy model."
The stratagem allows you to override that 3" part, but does nothing to change its status as a move. So Drop Pods (and Hammerfall bunkers) are still not allowed to perform them.

I can already see the counter-argument, "but the stratagem is specific, so trumps general" - that's only when you have a direct conflict, and there isn't one here because you aren't given permission to override that particular rule.
Otherwise you could argue that you could use a stratagem that would allow a unit with no Attacks to "fight again", or a stratagem that allows a pure melee unit to "fire Overwatch", for example.

 Niiai wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Under characteristics models without movement are unable to move at all. (Under characteristics.)

Models move up their mocement. (Under movement.)

Heroic intervention lets a character move 3. (Under heroic intervebtion.)

Now the stratagem clearny states a model can heroic intercebt, and that should trump the geberal rule under characteristics. Movement in heroic intervention is not depending on a characters move characteristic. It is a flat 3.

A Heroic Intervention is a type of move. The movement characteristic of "-" explicitly imparts an inability to move under any circumstances. Therefore, it cannot under any circumstances Heroically Intervene

Yes and the stratagem clearly says that they are allowed to do this action as if they where a character. It even allows it up tp 6".

can nots have a precedent to trump cans in 40k ,,, sure this might need an FAQ . However, if you look at previous FAQs the can nots almost always outweigh the cans... like auspexscan v.s. any thing that says you can deepstrike closer then 9.
but honestly, if you try to pull this with any gamers,,, see just how many people want to play the game with you ... lol, honestly, trying to claim 6" HI on a DP as RAI is just ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Ah,,, that makes much more sense lol ... do you have a page number for the M "-" = no move at all ? I remember reading it, i just cant find it XD . @super ready

Sure, it's page 202 in the big Core book, page 7 in the free PDF version. Under 'Profiles', section 4.

Some other interesting tidbits I realised while looking this up:
- you can make a Drop Pod your Warlord. While it can't gain a Warlord trait as a result, this does technically mean that it gets to call down Orbital Bombardments.
- the Drop Pod can take advantage of the Space Wolves stratagem 'Knowledge of the Foe'. Good to know that pods know how to "make full use of their Omophagea". They can also use the Black Templars' stratagem to 'Abhor the Witch' and deny psychic powers...

Ah, thank you.

keep in mind though, in 9th , if you do have a character model you have to choose it as your warlord. If you don't then it can be any model, including the DP if you want... in 8th that restriction wasnt there. pg 251 BRB point 8.

and sure drop pods could trigger "knowledge of the foe" except they cant make melee attacks.
In fact they can even be selected to do that Heroic intervene ,,, they just cant move. . .

 Niiai wrote:

Yes and the stratagem clearly says that they are allowed to do this action as if they where a character. It even allows it up tp 6".

No, it does not. A drop pod cannot under any circumstances move. That's what the "-" characteristic means. Permission to start the Heroic Intervention chain of operations does not equal permission to move.

Just because the pod can perform heroic intervention as if it were a character doesnt give it more than 0 movement.

 p5freak wrote:
Just because the pod can perform heroic intervention as if it were a character doesnt give it more than 0 movement.

The second half of the rule "does" though. The rules doesn't say it may move up to it's movement ratiing, it says it may move up to 6 etc.

Breton wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Just because the pod can perform heroic intervention as if it were a character doesnt give it more than 0 movement.

The second half of the rule "does" though. The rules doesn't say it may move up to it's movement ratiing, it says it may move up to 6 etc.

Except a Drop Pod can not move. Can not trumps can and Must.

"If a model has a Move of ‘-’ it is unable to move at all" P7 left column, 4. Profiles section, Move subsection.

Yeah. That is the general rule. And then his spesific rule says that since you pay CP you deviate from the general rule as all stratagems lets you do. It even spesifies how much ekstra you can move it. Up to 6". Note that it does not say 'move up to 6, unless the model can not move for some reason.'

If someone pays CP to shoot twice they deviate from the general rule that only lets you shoot once. No one will argue that the general rule say you can only shoot once and thusly you can not shoot twice even with the shoot twice stratagem.

For the time beeing there is a loophole that lets SW Drop Pods do heroic intervention. Is it dumb? Yes. Will it be fixed in an FAQ? Probably. Until that time deploy them full starfish all doors out and heroic inetween into multiple units, following normal rules.

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. That is the general rule. And then his spesific rule says that since you pay CP you deviate from the general rule as all stratagems lets you do. It even spesifies how much ekstra you can move it. Up to 6". Note that it does not say 'move up to 6, unless the model can not move for some reason.'

If someone pays CP to shoot twice they deviate from the general rule that only lets you shoot once. No one will argue that the general rule say you can only shoot once and thusly you can not shoot twice even with the shoot twice stratagem.

For the time beeing there is a loophole that lets SW Drop Pods do heroic intervention. Is it dumb? Yes. Will it be fixed in an FAQ? Probably. Until that time deploy them full starfish all doors out and heroic inetween into multiple units, following normal rules.

No, the drop pod is the more specific rule.

 Niiai wrote:
But spesific trumps non spesific no?

I think this is the problem. "specific trumps non-specific" is neither a rule nor true. It used to be a clutch to make sense older edition's rulesets which had rules in direct contradiction to each other, but is definitely not true for 9th.

As of know, you have to adhere to all rules unless you are explicitly told otherwise. If a unit has a rule stating that it cannot move, you have to adhere to that rule, even if you gain permission to heroically intervene, charge, pile in, consolidate or any other move. As soon as you move the drop pod for any reason, you are breaking the rules.

"specific trumps non-specific" is a guideline to use when there is a direct conflict between two rules.

In this case, there is no direct conflict. The stratagem does not say it lets a model with a - movement move to heroically intervene. It says the model can perform a heroic intervention as if it were a character. A character with a - movement stat cannot move as part of a heroic intervention.

So there is no conflict, both rules function as they are written. You use the strat, the drop pod can heroically intervene, but cannot move as it has a - movement stat.

Counter Charge doesn't let a drop pod move any more than Auspex Scan lets you ignore Look Out Sir.

I agree that there is no conflict here. The stratagem would not allow the Drop Pod to move.

 Niiai wrote:
Yeah. That is the general rule. And then his spesific rule says that since you pay CP you deviate from the general rule as all stratagems lets you do. It even spesifies how much ekstra you can move it. Up to 6". Note that it does not say 'move up to 6, unless the model can not move for some reason.'

If someone pays CP to shoot twice they deviate from the general rule that only lets you shoot once. No one will argue that the general rule say you can only shoot once and thusly you can not shoot twice even with the shoot twice stratagem.

For the time beeing there is a loophole that lets SW Drop Pods do heroic intervention. Is it dumb? Yes. Will it be fixed in an FAQ? Probably. Until that time deploy them full starfish all doors out and heroic inetween into multiple units, following normal rules.

All that Counter Charge does is give a non-character permission to Heroically Intervene as if it were a character, and to do so when an enemy is within 6". These two aspects of the Strat change two parts of the rules for Heroic Intervention: that it is for Characters; and that it involves a move of up to 3". Nothing in the Strat overrides the Datasheets part of the rules on page 202 of the main rule book: "If a model has a Move of '-', it is unable to move at all."

The statement "unable to move at all" says nothing about phases or actions. It says unable to move at all. If you are going to talk about specific over general then "unable to move at all"
is about as specific as you can get. The Space Wolves stratagem as written offers nothing to change that.