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So I got an original printing copy of the 8th Ed CSM codex to help myself get in touch with the newer rules and equipment. Looking through I noticed that all Noise Marines could replace their Boltgun with a Sonic Blaster. At first since I'm used to 5th Ed where point costs for wargear swaps was within the unit listing it seemed to be at no cost. I have since realized that it's a 4pt upgrade. However, for a change from Rapid Fire 1 to Assault 3 + Ignores Cover it seems a bit under priced. Am I missing something where Rapid Fire 1 is somehow equal to or better than Assault 3 under any circumstances, even setting aside the Ignores Cover bonus on the SB?

hell no, sonic blasters are totally worth it.

take a blast master too, you won't be disappointed.

Racerguy180 wrote:
hell no, sonic blasters are totally worth it.

take a blast master too, you won't be disappointed.

Alright, sounds good to me. How about Doom Sirens? They're 22pts and while most of the stat line is great, it only has an 8" range. Since I'm pretty sure it can't be fired alongside another weapon even though it doesn't replace any, is it worth it? Since it's Assault D6 I can see it being very good on an assault/melee oriented squad, but I'm not sure that's what a squad loaded up with Sonic Blasters and a Blast Master or two would be looking to do. Maybe if I could trade the seemingly pointless Bolt Pistol each one has standard with a Chainsword for the extra attack in addition to trading the Boltgun for a SB/BM, but that doesn't seem like an option. Or maybe I'm missing something. I know pistol class used to grant an extra attack in melee as well, so if that still exists, maybe the Bolt Pistol is actually better than a Chainsword?

I would personally wait a bit, as a new CSM codex is coming out next year, most likely with new rules (and hopefully, models) for Noise Marines.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I would personally wait a bit, as a new CSM codex is coming out next year, most likely with new rules (and hopefully, models) for Noise Marines.

Yeah, I'm just thinking about it right now, but I do plan to get some Noise Marines whether or not they get new models. I actually recently got a NoS squad of the previous sculpt, so if they don't get an updated model, I'll just order the parts to make them Noise Marines with SB/BM. Or I'll just get 3rd party not-Noise Marines. Or convert a squad of regular SM since the Noise Marine Upgrade kit still hasn't been updated to the new sculpt. I do have a lot of leftover CSM parts to kit bash. Basically just need the legs, torso back halves, and back packs with all the extra bits I have.

Edit: I should say this is more theory talk rather than a how-to-build-these-things. Also, when I say I will get the GW Noise Marine Upgrade kit to make them, I mean I'd get two of the kit to have both BM easily identifiable, but I'd just convert or counts-as the rest for SB after the two from the two kits. The kits are way too expensive to buy the necessary 8 to fill a 10-man squad, or worse 18 to make a 20-man squad. And if I did that I'd have an absolute ton of extra parts left over with no clear use. What would anyone do with an extra 16 BM?

Pistols dont grant an extra attack any more. However, they can be shot while in melee range, in the shooting phase. So not pointless, though you won't get a chance to shoot with the pistol until your next turn after melee combat starts.

Hmmm so if it was free to switch, would it make more sense to take a Bolt Pistol or a Chainsword? Hard choice. I guess if the model has equal or better S than the bolt pistol and/or higher WS it easily makes sense as their melee attacks would all benefit from the -1 AP on the Chainsword, but if the models BS is higher and/or the S is lesser than the Bolt Pistol then it makes more sense to shoot. The fact that the Chainsword grants an extra melee attack is now irrelevant as the Bolt Pistol grants an attack by being able to shoot while in melee.

Except that, as the rules stand, it's not a question of bolt pistol or chainsword. You can either replace your boltgun with a sonic blaster, or a chainsword. They keep the bolt pistol in all circumstances - except for the champ who has options.

If the rules changed, and you could swap out the bolt pistol, I'd always take the chainsword. Being able to fire pistol weapons whilst locked in CC almost never does anything, and because you'll be running these noise marines as Emperor's Children (right???) they get to fight first anyway, so thinning the ranks of the enemy in the shooting phase matters little when you get to hit first anyway (unless they charged).

With the chainsword, noise marines get 3 attacks ordinarily, 4 on the first turn of combat, and with AP -1.
There's even an argument to be made that currently they're better than sonic blasters, as the points adjustments for the sonics have not been kind.

Yeah, I get that switching the BP out currently isn't an option for them, so I was just thinking more in general on that one.

On a different note, you mentioned a points adjustment for SB. I wasn't aware that one had been made. Did GW finally get around to updating all the weapons for 9th? I figured we wouldn't see anything beyond the SM armory update until the CSM codex.

They set out points adjustments in the recent Field Manual for 9th. Sonic blasters are currently 5 points, which is bit steep for what they do - only giving an extra shot over bolters and with ignores cover.

Isn’t ignores cover going to be more valuable in 9th?

mrFickle wrote:
Isn’t ignores cover going to be more valuable in 9th?

Sure, its more valuable. But is it more valuable enough?
Is a noise marine with a sonic blaster worth 21 over 14 points for a normal chaos marine with a bolter?

Every two is going to give you another full marine; or one is 3 points shy of a marine with plasma gun or meltagun. Is that extra shot really worth it? 21 points is a big ask for S4 shots, even if they do ignore cover.

mrFickle wrote:
Isn’t ignores cover going to be more valuable in 9th?

yes, very much so.

Voss wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Isn’t ignores cover going to be more valuable in 9th?

Sure, its more valuable. But is it more valuable enough?
Is a noise marine with a sonic blaster worth 21 over 14 points for a normal chaos marine with a bolter?

Every two is going to give you another full marine; or one is 3 points shy of a marine with plasma gun or meltagun. Is that extra shot really worth it? 21 points is a big ask for S4 shots, even if they do ignore cover.

The extra shot is also on an Assault weapon (so no need to stand still or go into <12" for that extra shot) and don't Noise Marines still shoot when they die?

Does it make any sense to run noise marines in melee mode? 2pts for 1A seems pretty lame tbh (compared to csm). The doom siren is a weird little thing but it doesn't seem particularly useful. Shoot when you die with a bolt pistol seems pretty marginal.

Also, LOL@ having basically the exact same gun as an assault bolter intercessor with 1/2 the wounds and paying +1Pt. XD

I would go EC for their strat or take chosen. The sonic blaster is much much better than a bolter, but that's not saying much and then cost is very high. Mine have never done much except as EC where one unit becomes pretty efficient at killing peq.
Chosen for 4 pts more get special weapons and free chainswords as an addition rather than a swap.

Hmm thanks for all the insight. I was initially thinking about using them as a good point defense unit as two BM on Single Frequency are rather excellent ranged power, the whole squad having cover negating overwatch making it impossible to use cover to flank, and then all their weapons being Assault (or having an Assault option for the BM) means they can easily charge if an enemy squad gets too close. In addition, with Hateful Assault they get an extra Attack until end of turn if they charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention, so that's neat. On top of that, Slayer-Fan123 is correct on the shot after death, at least according to BattleScribe and my early 8th CSM codex. The ability Music of the Apocalypse allows any model that dies to make a single ranged weapon attack as if it were your shooting phase before being removed as a casualty, but after the attacking unit has finished making all of it's attacks. The codex states that the model may even throw a grenade, even if within 1" of the enemy. However, BattleScribe does not say this so it may have been removed later.

Yes he's correct, and your idea was a solid build in 8th. When they became really cheap for a bit I used a full squad with just 2 BMs as a pseudo havoc unit. They actually did some good work, with support and ablatives. In 9th they got hit too hard in pts I feel. But one unit of 10-20 fully loaded from EC is very murderous. So that's a couple potential viable builds.

dominuschao wrote:
Yes he's correct, and your idea was a solid build in 8th. When they became really cheap for a bit I used a full squad with just 2 BMs as a pseudo havoc unit. They actually did some good work, with support and ablatives. In 9th they got hit too hard in pts I feel. But one unit of 10-20 fully loaded from EC is very murderous. So that's a couple potential viable builds.

I'm not sure where they seem to have been hit hard in 9th. The 1pt difference on the SB isn't exactly a deal breaker in my book and as far as I know, nothing else has been changed since the CSM codex isn't out yet. If anything, I think they may get better once the +1 wound buff to all SM hits CSM as well. They will likely see a small point increase like most everything else, but so will every other option in the CSM line. Obviously we can't make any concrete assertions one way or the other until the full codex is released, but this is what I expect to see. As CSM are more or less just a mirror of their loyalist brothers, GW will certainly be buffing them up to at least remain viable. Unless their plan is to wipe them out entirely and announce that Chaos as a whole has been defeated, which I find exceedingly unlikely. The Great Game must go on after all.

They were cheaper (body + gun) in 8th going from 17 to 21 ppm on a unit that was bad before and now worse with an inordinately high increase compared to most.
I still used them for quite a long time in multiple configurations ranging from 2x5 to 2x8, 1 x 10, 1x20. But they are just a fluff inclusion in CSM, for now as they do not compete well from ELITES at all.

10 with SBs is nearly identical cost to 8 terminators for example. 30 vs 32 shots. One ignores cover, the other has twice the wounds better saves plus invulns, can DS and fight with chainaxes. Just one example.

Anyway the dual BM build was solid at 154 and remains ok at 190 as a cool alternative to havocs with 8 ablatives. The SB builds (non EC that is) you will find just don't do enough over troops choices or better elites. Thats my experience.

Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

Csm don't have any specific rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. You can use the models, but it's just for looks. They have the same rules and options as all Chaos Terminators. But you can still use the models if you prefer them. I do.

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

It's not that. The cult legions are good in their own books/legion. NM in csm is just a bad unit. Take 10 csm troops with 2 heavy bolters the rest with chainswords for example.

Run them as emperor's children patrol with a sorcerer of some flavor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dominuschao wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

It's not that. The cult legions are good in their own books/legion. NM in csm is just a bad unit. Take 10 csm troops with 2 heavy bolters the rest with chainswords for example as comparison.

Run them as emperor's children patrol with a sorcerer of some flavor.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

Csm don't have any specific rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. You can use the models, but it's just for looks. They have the same rules and options as all Chaos Terminators. But you can still use the models if you prefer them. I do.

That seems weird to me. The only difference I know if is the Cataphactii better save/lower movement trade off and some neat looking wargear options like the Plasma Blaster in the Tartartos picture. Given that these suits were actually more standard than the Indomitus pattern at the time of the HH, I feel like it actually would make more sense for CSM to have them than loyalists. In fact, you can actually see that to an extent with the CSM having the Reaper Autocannon which is the same weapon on the Tartaros terminators as well. I guess if I were to play them and I wanted a Plasma Blaster, I'd just use the stats and point cost from the loyalist book. It's not like there's ever been a real difference between the same guns in each faction anyway.

Interestingly, it is actually stated at times in the lore that CSM weapons are often superior to their loyalist counterparts due to a combination of older craftsmanship being superior, the weapons being superior patterns that are either lost or have been replaced with cheaper, less effective patterns for cost saving reasons, and the blessings of the warp greatly increasing their output. We rarely if every see any of that represented on the table top though. Who knows, maybe that'll change so GW can keep CSM on par with Primaris without buffing their stat line above First Born or letting CSM also have Primaris.

 SergentSilver wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

Csm don't have any specific rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. You can use the models, but it's just for looks. They have the same rules and options as all Chaos Terminators. But you can still use the models if you prefer them. I do.

That seems weird to me. The only difference I know if is the Cataphactii better save/lower movement trade off and some neat looking wargear options like the Plasma Blaster in the Tartartos picture. Given that these suits were actually more standard than the Indomitus pattern at the time of the HH, I feel like it actually would make more sense for CSM to have them than loyalists. In fact, you can actually see that to an extent with the CSM having the Reaper Autocannon which is the same weapon on the Tartaros terminators as well. I guess if I were to play them and I wanted a Plasma Blaster, I'd just use the stats and point cost from the loyalist book. It's not like there's ever been a real difference between the same guns in each faction anyway.

Interestingly, it is actually stated at times in the lore that CSM weapons are often superior to their loyalist counterparts due to a combination of older craftsmanship being superior, the weapons being superior patterns that are either lost or have been replaced with cheaper, less effective patterns for cost saving reasons, and the blessings of the warp greatly increasing their output. We rarely if every see any of that represented on the table top though. Who knows, maybe that'll change so GW can keep CSM on par with Primaris without buffing their stat line above First Born or letting CSM also have Primaris.

Ye,I agree, the Legions should have more of the Heresy pattern terminator suits than loyalists, but loyalist players tend to disagree. Expect a lot of "csm shouldn't have those, they can't maintain them" and other such arguments if you try to make that point.

But since the new loyalist codex, Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators are essentially just regular terminators with more weapons options. Cataphractii lost their 4++ and Tartaros move the same speed as regular terminators. In fact, Cataphractii and Tartaros have been merged into one datasheet: "Relic Terminators". And since Chaos Terminators already have far more weapons options than loyalists, it's pretty easy just to use the models as regular Chaos Terminators. If you really want rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros, you'll have to go with Death Guard and Thousand Sons respectively.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

Csm don't have any specific rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. You can use the models, but it's just for looks. They have the same rules and options as all Chaos Terminators. But you can still use the models if you prefer them. I do.

That seems weird to me. The only difference I know if is the Cataphactii better save/lower movement trade off and some neat looking wargear options like the Plasma Blaster in the Tartartos picture. Given that these suits were actually more standard than the Indomitus pattern at the time of the HH, I feel like it actually would make more sense for CSM to have them than loyalists. In fact, you can actually see that to an extent with the CSM having the Reaper Autocannon which is the same weapon on the Tartaros terminators as well. I guess if I were to play them and I wanted a Plasma Blaster, I'd just use the stats and point cost from the loyalist book. It's not like there's ever been a real difference between the same guns in each faction anyway.

Interestingly, it is actually stated at times in the lore that CSM weapons are often superior to their loyalist counterparts due to a combination of older craftsmanship being superior, the weapons being superior patterns that are either lost or have been replaced with cheaper, less effective patterns for cost saving reasons, and the blessings of the warp greatly increasing their output. We rarely if every see any of that represented on the table top though. Who knows, maybe that'll change so GW can keep CSM on par with Primaris without buffing their stat line above First Born or letting CSM also have Primaris.

Ye,I agree, the Legions should have more of the Heresy pattern terminator suits than loyalists, but loyalist players tend to disagree. Expect a lot of "csm shouldn't have those, they can't maintain them" and other such arguments if you try to make that point.

But since the new loyalist codex, Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators are essentially just regular terminators with more weapons options. Cataphractii lost their 4++ and Tartaros move the same speed as regular terminators. In fact, Cataphractii and Tartaros have been merged into one datasheet: "Relic Terminators". And since Chaos Terminators already have far more weapons options than loyalists, it's pretty easy just to use the models as regular Chaos Terminators. If you really want rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros, you'll have to go with Death Guard and Thousand Sons respectively.

I would laugh the ass off anyone who suggested that loyalists are more likely to have ancient gear cus chaos can't maintain theirs. Did they forget that they can't even manufacture ~90% of their best stuff because they don't understand how it works, much less know how to make it? Did they forget that the war of attrition has destroyed gear on both sides that can't be replaced and that the sheer number of new marines and lesser gear being created by loyalists on a regular basis means mean it's actually more rare for loyalists to show one on the field instead of something newer? Did they forget that Warpsmiths are just a Techmarine improved by the powers of chaos? Did they forget that the powers of the warp can restore wounds and repair vehicles, much less fix a single gun? Did they forget that in the lore it has been stated multiple times that time passes differently in the warp and for some traitors the HH happened only a short time ago? There's so many reasons the idea that CSM can't have them because they're old and hard to find doesn't make any sense. Taking one look at the DG and TS terminators displaying a legions worth of exclusively these so called "impossible for them to maintain armors" shows how stupid that is. I'm sure when we get WE and EC terminators, they'll be an equally "rare" armor or one of the same. Just because the loyalists have only a few tucked away for chapter heroes doesn't mean chaos doesn't have a few legions worth hidden away or galivanting across the Eye. They must have forgotten that fully half of the legions turned and the legions are where all this old gear was prominent.

 SergentSilver wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

Csm don't have any specific rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. You can use the models, but it's just for looks. They have the same rules and options as all Chaos Terminators. But you can still use the models if you prefer them. I do.

That seems weird to me. The only difference I know if is the Cataphactii better save/lower movement trade off and some neat looking wargear options like the Plasma Blaster in the Tartartos picture. Given that these suits were actually more standard than the Indomitus pattern at the time of the HH, I feel like it actually would make more sense for CSM to have them than loyalists. In fact, you can actually see that to an extent with the CSM having the Reaper Autocannon which is the same weapon on the Tartaros terminators as well. I guess if I were to play them and I wanted a Plasma Blaster, I'd just use the stats and point cost from the loyalist book. It's not like there's ever been a real difference between the same guns in each faction anyway.

Interestingly, it is actually stated at times in the lore that CSM weapons are often superior to their loyalist counterparts due to a combination of older craftsmanship being superior, the weapons being superior patterns that are either lost or have been replaced with cheaper, less effective patterns for cost saving reasons, and the blessings of the warp greatly increasing their output. We rarely if every see any of that represented on the table top though. Who knows, maybe that'll change so GW can keep CSM on par with Primaris without buffing their stat line above First Born or letting CSM also have Primaris.

Ye,I agree, the Legions should have more of the Heresy pattern terminator suits than loyalists, but loyalist players tend to disagree. Expect a lot of "csm shouldn't have those, they can't maintain them" and other such arguments if you try to make that point.

But since the new loyalist codex, Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators are essentially just regular terminators with more weapons options. Cataphractii lost their 4++ and Tartaros move the same speed as regular terminators. In fact, Cataphractii and Tartaros have been merged into one datasheet: "Relic Terminators". And since Chaos Terminators already have far more weapons options than loyalists, it's pretty easy just to use the models as regular Chaos Terminators. If you really want rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros, you'll have to go with Death Guard and Thousand Sons respectively.

I would laugh the ass off anyone who suggested that loyalists are more likely to have ancient gear cus chaos can't maintain theirs. Did they forget that they can't even manufacture ~90% of their best stuff because they don't understand how it works, much less know how to make it? Did they forget that the war of attrition has destroyed gear on both sides that can't be replaced and that the sheer number of new marines and lesser gear being created by loyalists on a regular basis means mean it's actually more rare for loyalists to show one on the field instead of something newer? Did they forget that Warpsmiths are just a Techmarine improved by the powers of chaos? Did they forget that the powers of the warp can restore wounds and repair vehicles, much less fix a single gun? Did they forget that in the lore it has been stated multiple times that time passes differently in the warp and for some traitors the HH happened only a short time ago? There's so many reasons the idea that CSM can't have them because they're old and hard to find doesn't make any sense. Taking one look at the DG and TS terminators displaying a legions worth of exclusively these so called "impossible for them to maintain armors" shows how stupid that is. I'm sure when we get WE and EC terminators, they'll be an equally "rare" armor or one of the same. Just because the loyalists have only a few tucked away for chapter heroes doesn't mean chaos doesn't have a few legions worth hidden away or galivanting across the Eye. They must have forgotten that fully half of the legions turned and the legions are where all this old gear was prominent.

You'll have plenty to laugh at here on dakka then, because I've had those exact same arguments with loyalists players multiple times, over both the Heresy pattern terminator marks and the Heresy pattern vehicles, sometimes for whole threads. Also you forgot that the Legions stole a lot of STCs on their way to the Eye, and that the Dark Mechanicus can still manufacture a lot of Heresy Era tech. Glad to have you aboard.

or, alternative idea, different marks of terminator armor should have about as much rules variance as different marks of power armor do.

I.e. none.

Loyalist terminator marks basically just amount to different weapon options, none of which I'm aware of Chaos Terminators don't have access to besides the TH/SS variant which were not a heresy thing.

the_scotsman wrote:
or, alternative idea, different marks of terminator armor should have about as much rules variance as different marks of power armor do.

I.e. none.

Loyalist terminator marks basically just amount to different weapon options, none of which I'm aware of Chaos Terminators don't have access to besides the TH/SS variant which were not a heresy thing.

Yes, like I said, just use the models you like with the standard Chaos Terminators rules. My only problem with loyalists having rules for the Heresy patterns was that they did and we didn't. Now that all terminators are essentially the same, I'm quite happy. Or at least I will be whenever gw gets around to giving Chaos Terminators 3W so that they are all the same.....

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
or, alternative idea, different marks of terminator armor should have about as much rules variance as different marks of power armor do.

I.e. none.

Loyalist terminator marks basically just amount to different weapon options, none of which I'm aware of Chaos Terminators don't have access to besides the TH/SS variant which were not a heresy thing.

Yes, like I said, just use the models you like with the standard Chaos Terminators rules. My only problem with loyalists having rules for the Heresy patterns was that they did and we didn't. Now that all terminators are essentially the same, I'm quite happy. Or at least I will be whenever gw gets around to giving Chaos Terminators 3W so that they are all the same.....

Yeah, I just wish I could build the army I'm building with a bit more confidence that the rules I'm building around will exist in 6 months when I'm finally finished with building+painting it.

But it's emperors children so I for sure cannot. Quite possibly the single worst army to build right now lol.