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I stumbled upon this little fact while building my crusade list for a league my local shop is running.

An Astrum Militarum special weapons squad is only 1 Power Level. What does that get you? 6 bodies, with 3 special weapons. I have been going x3 plasma gun.
This is just absolutely dirt cheap. for 3 PL, you get 18 bodies with 9 plasma guns. For 5 PL you get 30 bodies with 15 special weapons etc etc. The only real limit is the rule of 3, and the fact that it this only works in Power Level and not points.

But still, tell me a unit you think is more competitively priced than that. I bet it doesn't exist.

Yeah it’s disgusting.

Servitors are a close second, 2PL for 4 bodies and 2 multi meltas or heavy bolters.

Personally I like pyrovores too, 1pl for a heavy flamer and 2 4+ s5 power sword attacks, on a 4w t4 4+ body is pretty nice. And it has the chance to damage things that attack it and it explodes. Too bad rule of three stops you spamming them as I totally would

Crusade 100% needs to be in points, just like every other version of 40k.

 grouchoben wrote:
Crusade 100% needs to be in points, just like every other version of 40k.

I prefer points to power. I like the added granularity.

Wonder if the SWS is gonna get an FAQ or something-because 1 Power for three special weapons is DAMN cheap.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Crusade 100% needs to be in points, just like every other version of 40k.

I prefer points to power. I like the added granularity.

Then go play points and leave Crusade alone? The "added granularity" you're referring to is not something that really matters unless you're willing to go way, way deeper. Points for specific auras, points for specific subfactions, etc.

It's an illusion that leads to nothing but netlisting.

Wonder if the SWS is gonna get an FAQ or something-because 1 Power for three special weapons is DAMN cheap.

It's six Guardsmen as an Elite choice(not Veterans) with no Vox-Caster or any alternate deployment methods.

It should be cheap. But given that the weapon setup for Guard has been a mess for some time, we get nonsense like this.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Crusade 100% needs to be in points, just like every other version of 40k.

I prefer points to power. I like the added granularity.

Then go play points and leave Crusade alone? The "added granularity" you're referring to is not really applicable in any real way.

Wonder if the SWS is gonna get an FAQ or something-because 1 Power for three special weapons is DAMN cheap.

It's six Guardsmen as an Elite choice(not Veterans) with no Vox-Caster or any alternate deployment methods.

It should be cheap. But given that the weapon setup for Guard has been a mess for some time, we get nonsense like this.

I actually am interested in Crusade (accursed Covid is making my rulebook take forever and a day to show up) but I'll probably be importating rules from Matched Play, to stop stuff like Summoning nonsense, and will probably use points instead of Power, since that's what I prefer.

And 1 Power is, in my opinion, too cheap for a SWS. They're fragile, yes. But when you could (if not for the Rule of Three) take fifty of them for 300 bodies with 150 Special Weapons when your opponent might have... I dunno, taking a 1,000 point list (that's roughly equivalent to 50 Power, as far as I'm aware) 27 models... Yeah, they might be too cheap.

Actually, what's the PL of a Guard Squad? SWS lose ObSec compared to them, but gain a much greater Special Weapon saturation.

Okay, according to Battlescribe, a Guard Squad is 3 PL. So 10 bodies with a Special Weapon (or 9 with a Special and Heav) as compared to 18 with 9 Special Weapons?
Yeah, SOMETHING is out of whack there.

A normal guard squad with 10 bodies, including 1 special weapon and 1 heavy weapon is... 3PL.

So a special weapon squad is -4 bodies for 1/3rd the Power Level.

You want to know what's out of whack?

Cool, let's go over this (again)...
A Guard Infantry Squad is:
-1x Sergeant (comes with a Laspistol and Frag Grenades only). May replace Laspistol with a weapon from the Ranged Weapons List(Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, Boltgun) and then an option for a Chainsword or Power Sword.
-9x Guardsmen with Lasguns and Frag Grenades.
-OPTION: A model can replace their lasgun with a weapon from the Special Weapons list.
-OPTION: Two models may form a Heavy Weapons Team, with an item from the Heavy Weapons List.
-OPTION: One model may take a Vox-Caster.

By comparison, a Special Weapons Squads are:
-6x Guardsmen with three having the ability to swap out their Lasguns for items from the Special Weapons list.

There's no special skills or anything else on Guardsmen. You're paying for a 1W T3 5+ save with a bare minimum weapon.

all this thread explains is why you don't use power level if you want a balanced game

U02dah4 wrote:
all this thread explains is why you don't use power level if you want a balanced game

Or don't play with munchkin gamers.

If you're bringing that much plasma in a Crusade(aka: slow-grow) league? You're being a munchkin.

Kanluwen wrote:You want to know what's out of whack?

Cool, let's go over this (again)...
A Guard Infantry Squad is:
-1x Sergeant (comes with a Laspistol and Frag Grenades only). May replace Laspistol with a weapon from the Ranged Weapons List(Plasma Pistol, Bolt Pistol, Boltgun) and then an option for a Chainsword or Power Sword.
-9x Guardsmen with Lasguns and Frag Grenades.
-OPTION: A model can replace their lasgun with a weapon from the Special Weapons list.
-OPTION: Two models may form a Heavy Weapons Team, with an item from the Heavy Weapons List.
-OPTION: One model may take a Vox-Caster.

By comparison, a Special Weapons Squads are:
-6x Guardsmen with three having the ability to swap out their Lasguns for items from the Special Weapons list.

There's no special skills or anything else on Guardsmen. You're paying for a 1W T3 5+ save with a bare minimum weapon.

Yes. I would say the Infantry Squad is more valuable than the Special Weapons Squad-but NOT by triple.

By the time the Infantry Squad has taken 10 wounds (and therefore has no firepower left) the SWS are, at absolute worst, down to 5 Special Weapons.

One of AM’s strengths is the ability to win wars of attrition. SWS do not play into that strength.

For example, after 4 wounds on a SWS, you’re down an upgrade. By 6 wounds you’ve lost 3 upgrades.

By comparison, an Infantry squad that loses 6 wounds has lost 0 upgrades. Guardsmen are fragile things... 10 rapid fire bolters should take out 6 dudes on average.

I acknowledge there’s a lot of potential damage there... but they’re super fragile and, on average, will score 3 hits, and probably fry one of the dudes firing.

 greatbigtree wrote:
One of AM’s strengths is the ability to win wars of attrition. SWS do not play into that strength.

For example, after 4 wounds on a SWS, you’re down an upgrade. By 6 wounds you’ve lost 3 upgrades.

By comparison, an Infantry squad that loses 6 wounds has lost 0 upgrades. Guardsmen are fragile things... 10 rapid fire bolters should take out 6 dudes on average.

I acknowledge there’s a lot of potential damage there... but they’re super fragile and, on average, will score 3 hits, and probably fry one of the dudes firing.

But you get 3 SWS per Infantry Squad.

So you might lose your first upgrade after four deaths, but you have significantly more firepower still left. And more bodies.

In points, they're not good because they don't pack enough ablative wounds for a Guard Special Weapon.
In power, given they're 1 PL...

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes. I would say the Infantry Squad is more valuable than the Special Weapons Squad-but NOT by triple.

Then you would be absolutely mistaken if you believed that. SWS were considered trash for the most part by virtue of competing for Scion Command Squad slots(which are 4 models which can take 4 specials and Deep Strike).

It never fails to amaze how these little "OMG look at these broken Guard concepts I found!" threads pop up at the start of the editions.

By the time the Infantry Squad has taken 10 wounds (and therefore has no firepower left) the SWS are, at absolute worst, down to 5 Special Weapons.

The infantry squad has no meaningful firepower left within 6-7 wounds.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes. I would say the Infantry Squad is more valuable than the Special Weapons Squad-but NOT by triple.

Then you would be absolutely mistaken if you believed that. SWS were considered trash for the most part by virtue of competing for Scion Command Squad slots(which are 4 models which can take 4 specials and Deep Strike).

It never fails to amaze how these little "OMG look at these broken Guard concepts I found!" threads pop up at the start of the editions.

By the time the Infantry Squad has taken 10 wounds (and therefore has no firepower left) the SWS are, at absolute worst, down to 5 Special Weapons.

The infantry squad has no meaningful firepower left within 6-7 wounds.

To the first-that requires you to take a Tempestor, and more importantly, costs 3 PL for both them and the Prime. That means that they cost six times as much for what they bring to the table.

And to the second bit... No? After 6-7 wounds you've got 3-4 left. Which is a Heavy Weapons Team, a Special Weapon, and maybe a Sergeant. That's not bad firepower, at least for a cheap squad.

A Sergeant is literal garbage. They're pointless and have been. There's a reason why people took Conscripts over Infantry Squads early on.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A Sergeant is literal garbage. They're pointless and have been. There's a reason why people took Conscripts over Infantry Squads early on.

Which is why you kill the sergeant first if you don't need the Leadership.

But honestly, a dead Sergeant doesn't affect your Special and Heavy Weapons, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

Well, take 12 wounds. IS is down a heavy and a special, and still has 2 upgrades left. The SWS has lost 6 upgrades.

Take 18... 9 specials lost to the SWS, and you potentially have the special and heavy left in the second Infantry squad... only lost 2 upgrades vs 9.

It shifts target priority towards the SWS and away from IS... but you want The IS to be taking hits. They effectively devalue any attacks made against them.

Anyhow, gonna make an appeal to authority here, because I can. Been playing Guard since 1996 (Eye of Terror campaign book.) and I find that SWS fail to bring sufficient threat to overcome their defeating the attrition style of play that I’ve consistently found effective.

‘Cause I’m old, whipper-snappers!

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, take 12 wounds. IS is down a heavy and a special, and still has 2 upgrades left. The SWS has lost 6 upgrades.

Take 18... 9 specials lost to the SWS, and you potentially have the special and heavy left in the second Infantry squad... only lost 2 upgrades vs 9.

It shifts target priority towards the SWS and away from IS... but you want The IS to be taking hits. They effectively devalue any attacks made against them.

Anyhow, gonna make an appeal to authority here, because I can. Been playing Guard since 1996 (Eye of Terror campaign book.) and I find that SWS fail to bring sufficient threat to overcome their defeating the attrition style of play that I’ve consistently found effective.

‘Cause I’m old, whipper-snappers!

Wait... How do you have an Infantry Squad left after 12 wounds taken? They only have 10.

It's 3 SWS (1 PL each) to 1 Infantry Squad (3 PL each).

Because, in points (where a SWS is similar in points to an Infantry Squad, at least when tooled up) I definitely agree that the SWS is mediocre at best.
But in PL, when you get three SWS per normal Guard squad... It doesn't seem like much of a contest.

U02dah4 wrote:
all this thread explains is why you don't use power level if you want a balanced game

Power level also matters for strategic reserves, and that comes up in matched play. It means I can pay 1 cp to outflank an infantry squad, 3 SWS, and a company commander, a very solid little outflanking force not to be sneezed at.

 Kanluwen wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
all this thread explains is why you don't use power level if you want a balanced game

Or don't play with munchkin gamers.

If you're bringing that much plasma in a Crusade(aka: slow-grow) league? You're being a munchkin.

Yea well for god knows why the FLGS decided he wanted a crusade league...with prize money incentives for winning. And anytime he talks about it, he doesn't say "league" (even though its taking place over weeks and months) he says "tournament". Dont ask me why we are using power level for a tournament.... that's just what it is. And we are not using the rule of three. Its a very bizarre situation.

And with the amount of dirty marine players I needed something to give me an edge...hence an incredible amount of dirt cheap plasma found in special weapon squads.

For what it’s worth, most AM infantry benefit from PL, while most vehicles are at a slight disadvantage, when compared to points.

No rule of three? I suppose the target priority issue of limited SWS is circumvented, if you’re spamming them.

no rule of three so 3 infantry squads (9pl) and 6 SWS's (6pl) and a company commander (2pl) and you still have 8PL left to play with at 25PL beginner game.

LMAO pretty broken.