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If a Lord Discordant is given the warlord trait “Daemonsmith” and the relic “Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils” do they stack?

Relevant Rules:
Daemonsmith: When resolving an attack made by a model in a friendly IRON WARRIORS DAEMON ENGINE or IRON WARRIORS CULT OF DESTRUCTION unit within 6" of this Warlord, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.

Techno-venomous Mechatendrils: When the bearer fights, it makes 4 additional attacks with this weapon, and only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if a hit is scored the target suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends.

Specifically if, when rolling to hit using this weapon, and I roll a 6, does it cause 2 mortal wounds? Also, how does this relic work with the “Death to the false emperor” ability? In this case I’m thinking, because it says only those 4 attacks can be made, that 6s don’t generate extra attacks. But I do think Daemonsmith would generate additional mortal wounds.

When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

If you roll additional attacks for DTTFE with the tendrils you cant use those attacks for the tendrils because only four attacks can be made with them.

DeathReaper wrote:When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

The issue is that the weapon causes MW on a hit, no special extra triggers required.

p5freak wrote:If you roll additional attacks for DTTFE with the tendrils you cant use those attacks for the tendrils because only four attacks can be made with them.

Neither rule the OP referenced is about gaining extra attacks.

The real question is if extra hits are made with the weapon that triggers them which I’m sure I saw in a FAQ somewhere but can’t find now.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

The issue is that the weapon causes MW on a hit, no special extra triggers required.

Except, in context of the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils rule, if a hit is scored When resolving an attack made with this weapon... "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon" so any additional hits can not be with that weapon.

Honesstly, it seems like it does not work at all as we have no rules to use for the additional hits, if any.

Wait for an FAQ.

Until then discuss it with your opponent.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

The issue is that the weapon causes MW on a hit, no special extra triggers required.

Except, in context of the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils rule, if a hit is scored When resolving an attack made with this weapon... "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon" so any additional hits can not be with that weapon.

That can’t be true or every weapon that says “make X hit rolls for each attack” will never score more than one hit. And if it is true, we need a citation, please, because several dozen weapons need errata or FAQ immediately.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

The issue is that the weapon causes MW on a hit, no special extra triggers required.

Except, in context of the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils rule, if a hit is scored When resolving an attack made with this weapon... "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon" so any additional hits can not be with that weapon.

That can’t be true or every weapon that says “make X hit rolls for each attack” will never score more than one hit. And if it is true, we need a citation, please, because several dozen weapons need errata or FAQ immediately.

Except this does not say “make X hit rolls for each attack”

It is very specific on how many attacks you can make with that, namely "only those 4 [additional] attacks can be made with this weapon"

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

The issue is that the weapon causes MW on a hit, no special extra triggers required.

Except, in context of the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils rule, if a hit is scored When resolving an attack made with this weapon... "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon" so any additional hits can not be with that weapon.

That can’t be true or every weapon that says “make X hit rolls for each attack” will never score more than one hit. And if it is true, we need a citation, please, because several dozen weapons need errata or FAQ immediately.

Except this does not say “make X hit rolls for each attack”

It is very specific on how many attacks you can make with that, namely "only those 4 [additional] attacks can be made with this weapon"

And none of the rules mentioned making extra attacks. Why do you keep going on about limits on attacks when the rule is instructing you to apply an extra hit?

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When rolling to hit using this weapon, rolling a 6 should cause 1 mortal wound, and one additional hit.

The issue is that the weapon causes MW on a hit, no special extra triggers required.

Except, in context of the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils rule, if a hit is scored When resolving an attack made with this weapon... "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon" so any additional hits can not be with that weapon.

That can’t be true or every weapon that says “make X hit rolls for each attack” will never score more than one hit. And if it is true, we need a citation, please, because several dozen weapons need errata or FAQ immediately.

Except this does not say “make X hit rolls for each attack”

It is very specific on how many attacks you can make with that, namely "only those 4 [additional] attacks can be made with this weapon"

And none of the rules mentioned making extra attacks. Why do you keep going on about limits on attacks when the rule is instructing you to apply an extra hit?

It’s a bonkers non-interpretation for sure. If that were true every “extra something” rule would be capped at weapon/model’s regular maximum, which is patently untrue. Deathreaper is simply getting it wrong.

If you roll a 6+ when attacking an IMPERIUM unit with tendrils, you dont get an additional attack for DTTFE, because you cant make more than 4 attacks with the tendrils. DTTFE says you get additional attacks with the weapon you used for those attacks.

Death to the False Emperor
Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for a model with this ability in the Fight phase, it can, if it was targeting an IMPERIUM unit, immediately make an extra attack against the same unit using the same weapon. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.

 p5freak wrote:
If you roll a 6+ when attacking an IMPERIUM unit with tendrils, you dont get an additional attack for DTTFE, because you cant make more than 4 attacks with the tendrils. DTTFE says you get additional attacks with the weapon you used for those attacks.

Death to the False Emperor
Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for a model with this ability in the Fight phase, it can, if it was targeting an IMPERIUM unit, immediately make an extra attack against the same unit using the same weapon. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.

Yes, that rule which is talking about attacks is limited by the number of attacks that can be allocated to a given weapon by that weapon.

That still has nothing to do with the allocation of an extra hit by a completely different rule.

Edit: re-read the OP; this is relevant to the second part, so the DTTFE attack can’t be made with the tendrils.

If you roll a 6 for daemonsmith with the tendrils you get 1MW and an additional hit.

Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following sub-section:
SCORING ADDITIONAL HITS
When a model makes an attack, some rules will let that attack
score one or more additional hits on a particular hit roll (e.g.
‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit’). If the attacking model is
also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a particular
hit roll (e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon,
an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target’),
then only the original attack benefits from those rules. If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).

 p5freak wrote:
If you roll a 6 for daemonsmith with the tendrils you get 1MW and an additional hit.

Page 363 – Rare Rules
Add the following sub-section:
SCORING ADDITIONAL HITS
When a model makes an attack, some rules will let that attack
score one or more additional hits on a particular hit roll (e.g.
‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, an unmodified
hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit’). If the attacking model is
also benefiting from any other rules that trigger on a particular
hit roll (e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon,
an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target’),
then only the original attack benefits from those rules. If any
additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll,
those additional hits are not considered to have been made with
any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue
the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).

Yes? This is known. The problem is that the property of the weapon inflicting the extra hit is that it skips the rest of the attack sequence after hitting and just inflicts a MW. So the clarification that the additional hit is made without a particular hit roll is not relevant; the weapon itself doesn’t care about the hit roll.
So the extra hit becomes a MW because that’s what the dendrites do.
Unless it’s not them making the extra hit, but that isn’t addressed either way in the quotation.

Death to the False Emperor would not work, because you are capped at 4 attacks.

Daemonsmith would mean that every 6 rolled to hit inflicts 2 mortal wounds - more specifically, if relevant, 2 hits which each inflict 1 mortal wound.

Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

 MinMax wrote:
Death to the False Emperor would not work, because you are capped at 4 attacks.

Daemonsmith would mean that every 6 rolled to hit inflicts 2 mortal wounds - more specifically, if relevant, 2 hits which each inflict 1 mortal wound.

This is exactly my interpretation of how it would work.

Edit: And to expand on my interpretation of how that interacts with the rare rules excerpt that was cited, mortal wounds aren’t caused by a particular hit roll, just simply a hit. And considering that is what is generated by Daemonsmith, it will also convert to a mortal wound.

 alextroy wrote:
Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

But the rule states if there's a hit scored, you score a Mortal Wound AND the attack sequence ends. Wouldn't that mean the sequence ends before counting the extra hit if a 6 is rolled, and you end up with 1 mortal wound from the hit whether it's a 6 or another number rolled to get the hit? The Scoring Additional Hits section states you would treat the hit as a hit without any number rolled, and continue on the with attack sequence, but you're told the attack sequence ends with that first mortal wound.

 doctortom wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

But the rule states if there's a hit scored, you score a Mortal Wound AND the attack sequence ends. Wouldn't that mean the sequence ends before counting the extra hit if a 6 is rolled, and you end up with 1 mortal wound from the hit whether it's a 6 or another number rolled to get the hit? The Scoring Additional Hits section states you would treat the hit as a hit without any number rolled, and continue on the with attack sequence, but you're told the attack sequence ends with that first mortal wound.

Then no-one can score multiple hits with any weapon because “the attack sequence ends” after you deal damage (or the save is passed, or you fail to wound etc.) because every attack starts its own attack sequence.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

But the rule states if there's a hit scored, you score a Mortal Wound AND the attack sequence ends. Wouldn't that mean the sequence ends before counting the extra hit if a 6 is rolled, and you end up with 1 mortal wound from the hit whether it's a 6 or another number rolled to get the hit? The Scoring Additional Hits section states you would treat the hit as a hit without any number rolled, and continue on the with attack sequence, but you're told the attack sequence ends with that first mortal wound.

Then no-one can score multiple hits with any weapon because “the attack sequence ends” after you deal damage (or the save is passed, or you fail to wound etc.) because every attack starts its own attack sequence.

You make no sense here. "The attack sequence ends" is specific for TVM, it's not something that applies to other attacks from any other weapons.

 doctortom wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

But the rule states if there's a hit scored, you score a Mortal Wound AND the attack sequence ends. Wouldn't that mean the sequence ends before counting the extra hit if a 6 is rolled, and you end up with 1 mortal wound from the hit whether it's a 6 or another number rolled to get the hit? The Scoring Additional Hits section states you would treat the hit as a hit without any number rolled, and continue on the with attack sequence, but you're told the attack sequence ends with that first mortal wound.

Then no-one can score multiple hits with any weapon because “the attack sequence ends” after you deal damage (or the save is passed, or you fail to wound etc.) because every attack starts its own attack sequence.

You make no sense here. "The attack sequence ends" is specific for TVM, it's not something that applies to other attacks from any other weapons.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 1. Hit Roll, 1st para:
When a model makes an attack, make one hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6. If the result of the hit roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s Ballistic Skill (BS) characteristic (if the attack is being made with a ranged weapon) or its Weapon Skill (WS) characteristic (if the attack is being made with a melee weapon), then that attack scores one hit against the target unit. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 2. Wound Roll, 2nd para (under the table):
If the result of the wound roll is less than the required number, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 4. Saving Throw:
If the result is equal to, or greater than, the Save (Sv) characteristic of the model the attack was allocated to, then the saving throw is successful and the attack sequence ends.

Weirdly, the attack sequence doesn’t end after damage is applied so I guess no-one ever gets to make a second attack and the game locks up?

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

But the rule states if there's a hit scored, you score a Mortal Wound AND the attack sequence ends. Wouldn't that mean the sequence ends before counting the extra hit if a 6 is rolled, and you end up with 1 mortal wound from the hit whether it's a 6 or another number rolled to get the hit? The Scoring Additional Hits section states you would treat the hit as a hit without any number rolled, and continue on the with attack sequence, but you're told the attack sequence ends with that first mortal wound.

Then no-one can score multiple hits with any weapon because “the attack sequence ends” after you deal damage (or the save is passed, or you fail to wound etc.) because every attack starts its own attack sequence.

You make no sense here. "The attack sequence ends" is specific for TVM, it's not something that applies to other attacks from any other weapons.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 1. Hit Roll, 1st para:
When a model makes an attack, make one hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6. If the result of the hit roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s Ballistic Skill (BS) characteristic (if the attack is being made with a ranged weapon) or its Weapon Skill (WS) characteristic (if the attack is being made with a melee weapon), then that attack scores one hit against the target unit. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 2. Wound Roll, 2nd para (under the table):
If the result of the wound roll is less than the required number, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 4. Saving Throw:
If the result is equal to, or greater than, the Save (Sv) characteristic of the model the attack was allocated to, then the saving throw is successful and the attack sequence ends.

Weirdly, the attack sequence doesn’t end after damage is applied so I guess no-one ever gets to make a second attack and the game locks up?

Techno-venomous Mechatendrils: When the bearer fights, it makes 4 additional attacks with this weapon, and only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if a hit is scored the target suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends.

Weirdly, specific rules can override the general core rules.

 doctortom wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Daemonsmith and Techno-Venemous Mechatendrils clearly interact to cause a 6 to Hit to create two hits. Both of those hits cause a MW because that is what the weapon does on any Hit, not a hit of a particular roll.

DttFE will stack also to cause an additional attack. It specifically directs you to make another attack with that weapon. This is outside the limitation that "only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon", which only prevents you from assigning attacks the character has to a weapon it is armed with.

But the rule states if there's a hit scored, you score a Mortal Wound AND the attack sequence ends. Wouldn't that mean the sequence ends before counting the extra hit if a 6 is rolled, and you end up with 1 mortal wound from the hit whether it's a 6 or another number rolled to get the hit? The Scoring Additional Hits section states you would treat the hit as a hit without any number rolled, and continue on the with attack sequence, but you're told the attack sequence ends with that first mortal wound.

Then no-one can score multiple hits with any weapon because “the attack sequence ends” after you deal damage (or the save is passed, or you fail to wound etc.) because every attack starts its own attack sequence.

You make no sense here. "The attack sequence ends" is specific for TVM, it's not something that applies to other attacks from any other weapons.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 1. Hit Roll, 1st para:
When a model makes an attack, make one hit roll for that attack by rolling one D6. If the result of the hit roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model’s Ballistic Skill (BS) characteristic (if the attack is being made with a ranged weapon) or its Weapon Skill (WS) characteristic (if the attack is being made with a melee weapon), then that attack scores one hit against the target unit. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 2. Wound Roll, 2nd para (under the table):
If the result of the wound roll is less than the required number, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends.

Core Rules, Making Attacks, 4. Saving Throw:
If the result is equal to, or greater than, the Save (Sv) characteristic of the model the attack was allocated to, then the saving throw is successful and the attack sequence ends.

Weirdly, the attack sequence doesn’t end after damage is applied so I guess no-one ever gets to make a second attack and the game locks up?

Techno-venomous Mechatendrils: When the bearer fights, it makes 4 additional attacks with this weapon, and only those 4 attacks can be made with this weapon. When resolving an attack made with this weapon, if a hit is scored the target suffers 1 mortal wound and the attack sequence ends.

Weirdly, specific rules can override the general core rules.

So what you’re saying is that if a Space Wolf rolls a 6 to hit and gets an additional hit because the Assault Doctrine is active, if their first hit fails to wound, or the target makes their save, and the attack sequence ends, they don’t get to resolve their extra hit?

 Mr_Rose wrote:

So what you’re saying is that if a Space Wolf rolls a 6 to hit and gets an additional hit because the Assault Doctrine is active, if their first hit fails to wound, or the target makes their save, and the attack sequence ends, they don’t get to resolve their extra hit?

Does the Space Wolf have something that states the attack sequence ends if their first hit fails to wound?

Because Techno-venomous Mechatendrils specifically state that "if a hit is scored... the attack sequence ends"

it doesnt stack, though not because of any clause on DTTFE or with weapon useage.

It doesnt stack because immediately after dealing a single mortal wound, the attack sequence ends.

You could score 8 hits with the weapon because of the exploding 6's, but it deals one mortal wound and then its done. Attack sequence is over.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

So what you’re saying is that if a Space Wolf rolls a 6 to hit and gets an additional hit because the Assault Doctrine is active, if their first hit fails to wound, or the target makes their save, and the attack sequence ends, they don’t get to resolve their extra hit?

Does the Space Wolf have something that states the attack sequence ends if their first hit fails to wound?

Because Techno-venomous Mechatendrils specifically state that "if a hit is scored... the attack sequence ends"

And the core rules state that if you fail to wound, the attack sequence ends. Exactly the same wording. I don’t get why you think that the same words somehow mean different things here.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
it doesnt stack, though not because of any clause on DTTFE or with weapon useage.

It doesnt stack because immediately after dealing a single mortal wound, the attack sequence ends.

You could score 8 hits with the weapon because of the exploding 6's, but it deals one mortal wound and then its done. Attack sequence is over.

There is a logic and timing error in this analysis. When you attack, you roll a dice. You then determine if that dice roll Hit. That To-Hit Roll can hit or miss and also generate another effect simultaneously.

In the instanced of an exploding 6, a Hit Roll of 6 both Hits and generates an additional Attack (or Hit). You then resolve the first hit, which converts into a MW and ends that attack sequence. After that you resolve the additional Attack (or Hit).

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

So what you’re saying is that if a Space Wolf rolls a 6 to hit and gets an additional hit because the Assault Doctrine is active, if their first hit fails to wound, or the target makes their save, and the attack sequence ends, they don’t get to resolve their extra hit?

Does the Space Wolf have something that states the attack sequence ends if their first hit fails to wound?

Because Techno-venomous Mechatendrils specifically state that "if a hit is scored... the attack sequence ends"

And the core rules state that if you fail to wound, the attack sequence ends. Exactly the same wording. I don’t get why you think that the same words somehow mean different things here.

It is like the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils is a special case and does not follow core rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:

So what you’re saying is that if a Space Wolf rolls a 6 to hit and gets an additional hit because the Assault Doctrine is active, if their first hit fails to wound, or the target makes their save, and the attack sequence ends, they don’t get to resolve their extra hit?

Does the Space Wolf have something that states the attack sequence ends if their first hit fails to wound?

Because Techno-venomous Mechatendrils specifically state that "if a hit is scored... the attack sequence ends"

And the core rules state that if you fail to wound, the attack sequence ends. Exactly the same wording. I don’t get why you think that the same words somehow mean different things here.

It is like the Techno-venomous Mechatendrils is a special case and does not follow core rules.

What core rules are they not following? Every attack sequence ends early under some circumstances so unless you’re saying those circumstances, using the exact same wording, mean something different somehow because… well, apparently because you arbitrarily decided that they do, then no core rules are being broken. Adding an extra circumstance to a list of circumstances doesn’t alter the fundamental relationship between them and the rest of the rules.

You saying that ending the attack sequence early stops secondary/bonus hits from taking effect does not fit with other things that end the attack sequence early unless you can show that either the general case does the same thing or this specific case has extra verbiage to make it different. And, no, repeating yourself again does not count as “extra verbiage” - please cite a FAQ, erratum, or rules quote that supports your position that two effects with the same wording do different things.

 Mr_Rose wrote:

What core rules are they not following?

The one that says you can make any amount of attacks (Up to your max) with any weapon you are equipped with.

The rule limits the initial allocation of attacks, not bonus rules. Seems fairly self-evident and not worth twisting trying to claim it does something else.