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So I'm looking at picking up a guard army and I'd love to do a more mechanised force. I know there is a heavy anti vehicle meta in the form of eradicators but I'm working on the theory of if I have enough it's not going to matter. The list below revolves around three groups with a demolisher, eradicator, chimera and guard squad with manticore backup hiding in the backfield. Do you think it would work?


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [109 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Detachment CP

Regimental Doctrine: Gunnery Experts, Spotter Details

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Tank Commander [12 PL, 250pts]: Hunter-Killer Missile, Lascannon, Multi-meltas, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon, Warlord

Tank Commander [12 PL, 250pts]: Hunter-Killer Missile, Lascannon, Multi-meltas, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 250pts]: Hunter-Killer Missile, Lascannon, Multi-meltas, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 8x Guardsman: 8x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 8x Guardsman: 8x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 8x Guardsman: 8x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [33 PL, 495pts]
. Leman Russ Eradicator: Heavy Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile, Turret-mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon
. Leman Russ Eradicator: Heavy Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile, Turret-mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon
. Leman Russ Eradicator: Heavy Bolter, Hunter-Killer Missile, Turret-mounted Eradicator Nova Cannon

Manticore [8 PL, 145pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

Manticore [8 PL, 145pts]: Full Payload, Heavy Bolter

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [5 PL, 100pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile

Chimera [5 PL, 100pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile

Chimera [5 PL, 100pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Hunter-Killer Missile

++ Total: [109 PL, 11CP, 2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

So, right off, I would drastically redesign this list, and it will cost you a couple CP. What I can't say is if its any better the way you have it or the way I would do it, I think some of it is just playstyle based differences.
Its good. It will give many armies a great deal of trouble to kill, because its saturating their higher end weapons with targets. The problems are.
1. The tank commanders concentrate too much value and power in 3 12W hulls without invuln shielding.
2. The 3 backup leman russes use a main gun that isn't a great threat against enemy armor or things like knights. It has only average firepower in strength and ap, and not all enemies will be marines in cover. Even when they are, variable damage means you will often spend 2 shots to kill 1 intercesser even if you can get him to fail the save, and its going to be a 4+ save at WORST casue you are only AP-1.
3. Manticores are good. While better with full payload tank ace strat and ability, I wouldn't kick the indirect fire out of bed.
4. Chiimera are not faster than infantry with a commander ordering them to movemovemove -- and not much danger to a heavy armor or high quality infantry opponent. They will not exactly be ignored but they will surely be killed last, and probably not swing the game in your favor. I might be more enthusiastic about hellhounds instead, but I think the demolisher/flamertanks are a better mix of tools to kill even heavy enemy armor .. or anything else.

The fix.
Redo as 2 detachments, I suggest. Both will be custom regiments cause.
detcahment one is a mobile heavy armor group. Gunnery experts and jury riggers all, they can reroll 1 die per weapon and regenerate their health.
Tank Commander Alpha (tank ace -1cp is a master mechanic, meaning..., -1 damage to all incoming hits)
... loadout is midranged. He carries a battlecannon and heavy bolter.
Tough to kill, he makes his points back by either tying up shooting, or survives to do so by hitting things from a distacne with battle cannon fire.

Squad one. Brawler group Gamma
LRBT with demolisher cannon and 3 heavy flamer
LRBT with demolisher cannon and 3 heavy flamer
LRBT with demolisher cannon and 3 heavy flamer

Squad two. Midfield range tanks.
LRBT with plasma executioner cannon and heavy bolter
LRBT with palsma executioner cannon and heavy bolter
LRBT with plasma executioner cannon and heavy bolter

Manticore
Manticore
Manticore

That brings you up to 1690 so far. Your tanks, each and every one of them, are going to be hard to ignore -- but also, hard to pick who is worth shooting. IS it the demolisher in the front? The 2W killers in the midrange, that so consistantly chew through marines even in cover? That darn tank commander who just won't ... die? Or the manticores at extreme range and perhaps behind -1 to hit cover?
So, ok. you gave up a smidge there in total tank commander firepower, but as your opponent I would almost cry trying to prioritize the list of targets. The three frontliners are a real threat with their demo cannons -- but no less of one if they all stick together and you can roll out 9d6 flames twice (*so, around 36 to 40+ hits of S5/-1/1, that's goodness .) from their heavy flamers in "tank melee". Which they still prefer to avoid, but its as good as it gets for a leman russ, I think, that has to get close to use its demolisher's +100 percent firepower.

Detachment 2. These pyromaniac grenadiers are also wilderness experts, meaning, you can always have cover if you didn't advance, and your flamers are a smidge better. Maybe the one that 18 inch rapidfire to 2 is betere, though. The company commander can "movemovemove" the troops in place, on turn 1, and stick by vehicles for safety. The SWS greande and the SWS flamer and the command squad all can either start local ... or outflank into the strategic reserves, to arrive in the mid or back field and gather victory points midgame.
Patrol (pyromaniac wilderness survivors)
1 company commander (this guy is your warlord. You can keep him way back to keep him alive.) (I would give him probably the warlord trait that allows him to enhance the manticores shooting with old grudges. Against some enemies, that is a huge boost in power, and from a safe distance. Relic = aquila (try to get some CP back)
3 x 10 man gaurd regular squad with a grenade launcher or flamer each (choice)
command squad with 4 laspistols and 4 chainswords. Seriosuly, just there to take objectives (often from strategic reserves) and do actions.
special weapons squad with 3 grenade launchers
special weapons squad with 3 sniper rifles. You can make these by putting longer barrels on lasguns (a bit of crazyglue and a toothpick, and another bit of toothpick to be the "scope". Then two tiny tips of round toothpicks crazy glued to the gun so it appears to have a tiny bipod hanging from the barrels). Point is, they don't expect to shoot, they grab up objectives and skulk behind line of sight cover or go into strategic reserves.

As long as one of your remainng leman russ are nearby, you have obsec .. so your 4 man squad + a leamn russ is going to tie against 5 marine obsecs, but your 6 man +LR will win. Also, they will last a bit longer if you hide them behind the tanks!

Result is, for a tiny gaurd army, is about as resilient as gaurdsmen get. You will be using strategic reserves, favorable terrain, and the fact that most enemy are stuck in antitank combat till turn 5, to stay alive. If your tanks prioritize enemys who can kill infantry, you can also sacrifice a lot of your firepower to make the enemy's end game a loss of victory points when he realizes his board control is shot, and you have these guys scattered behind every blade of grass on the field.

Well, that's my suggestion. Notice that under no circumstance should you take eradicator nova cannon, its just mathematically inferior to even a plain battlecannon. For the same price as that + a hunterkiller, you can get a BC .. or more sexy, a DEMOLISHER. Even the humble battlecannon outperforms the nova cannon, and EVEN against enemy in cover, as it has more AP than the guy whose less AP makes its ability to ignore cover basically useless.

I know there is no easy transport in this list, and you will not have billions of cp, since oyu are buying a tank ace and a spearhead, but ... well, its gaurd.

What few people expect is a gaurd list that can fight viably with only 2 characters. Seriously, that's going to shock, and annoy, some players who count on assassinate vs gaurd.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
So, right off, I would drastically redesign this list, and it will cost you a couple CP. What I can't say is if its any better the way you have it or the way I would do it, I think some of it is just playstyle based differences.
Its good. It will give many armies a great deal of trouble to kill, because its saturating their higher end weapons with targets. The problems are.
1. The tank commanders concentrate too much value and power in 3 12W hulls without invuln shielding.
.

I'm not a guard player but every top list of guard i've seen in 9th edition runs Tank Commanders and they are by far a must include in guard armies because of the fire power they can put out. You have to screen them well in this edition but guard needs their firepower

I grant that point -- but msot of those armies are built more towards an integrated armored infantry rather than a mechanized column with 3 gaurd units as "drop this on the objective AFTER we win the day". I wasn't saying tank commanders are a bad unit -- I was objecting to these specific configurations in this specific army.

About 50 percent of this army's firepower is tied up in 3 tank commanders with extra multimeltas. Its not the concept of tank commanders per se that I am down on, but the superconcentration of value in those three, that have all the bells and whistles on. That's great in an open field when you are fighting another army of short range, heavy firepower, T8 tanks. Or even an army of redempter dreadnaughts, or something. If the terrain is a bit hindering for long range fire, and the enemy is using some sort of insanely well armored terminators to deepstrike in 9 inches from you and then wait for a turn behind the wall of a line of sight blocking obstruction, however, you are in trouble bad. And ...its less great when the enemy's 9 eradicators can drop out of deepstrike in three groups and delete 3 of your armor 24 inches from you, cause it just lets them "pick these three for 18 victory points this round". He doesn't have enough points to screen out such a strike, and any marine player facing him will probably consider the 2 cp to deepstrike his eradicator group to be a bargain.

I would have less objection if he had another 60 infantry to screen with. Not 60 total, but 90 or so, or even a bunch of small inconsequential screen units like 35 poitn scout sentinals and 24 point command squads, scattered all over the board to slow enemy approaches. Except his screens are really light .. he has to use either the chimeras (which then keeps them from racing for objectives with their troop cargo) or the other leman russes (which costs him those leman russes). When you start buying that many screen elements your points cost is high, though, so you don't have as many points left to put into armor, so it is forced to be hyperefficient. When you only buy armor, you can buy lots of cheaper armor, and have about the same total firepower, but without the particular vulnerability of the particular units being so expensive.

I hope that makes sense!

One very wild and odd idea regarding Screening/chokehold blocking: The Imperial Armor Compendium gave Carnodons another wound and a 10 point discount. I know the model is expensive, but if you feel OK with proxying them that 70 points for T7, W12, 3+ with 4 Multilasers and a footprint almost as big as a Leman Russ. So for one of your normal LR you can get almost 3 Carnodons.

If you don't think of them as meant to meaningful contribute to the firepower but as cheap boxes that can be thrown in the way and are (for their points) not easily removed, they migth find some use.
I mean they cost as much as two Multilaser Sentinels while having the same wounds, + 1T, twice the firepower and being faster. Or to draw another comparison: they cost 140% of a barebones Infantrysquad bringing 12 x S6/0/1 shots at 36'' instead of 9 x RF1 S3/0/1 shots. So more or less in line with the infantry firepower, but much sturdier.

Can they also take a pintle mount? I mean 70 points for the 12 shots vs 73 for the 16?

I think yes, as well as a Hunter Killer Missile.