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I think I've probably got the closest 'official' explanation of what happened to them
Sorry for everyone who has read this already and is sick of it
Some years ago (late 2000s) I was part of a forum (The Great Crusade) which was all a bunch of hobbyists that loved the Horus Heresy TCG and art books and were busy making 28mm miniatures of those concepts. This is before the Forge World books, before the official minis (everything was converted!) and the HH book series had just got started. It was a really cool community with some really creative people making the 'old' armour out of whatever they could sculpt themselves or get their hands on.
One of the forum 'Great Crusade' events was organised by Laurie Goulding (who went on to work as an Editor at Black Library). I think at the time Laurie was trying to get his foot in the door and knew a few of the BL authors as a result. One of these was Graham McNeil, who very kindly authored a quick bit of background 'The Assault on Gedren Prime' to serve as a background to the campaign. It was super cool, and started with this text (I have abridged this as the original was taken offline) " It is the 77th year of the Great Crusade. The Emporer of mankind leads his twenty legions ever outward through the galaxy, .." and.. "Corax, Progenitor of the Raven Guard and master of the expedition, was quick to order the invasion fleets of all twenty legions into position. Of the other Primarchs present within the fleet; Khan, Leman Russ and Malibron, there was no argument."
Hopefully everyone noticed the number of Legions and the extra name in there?
Basically one dude had turned up with his own chapter that didn't really fit in with the rest of the established legions, so he got to be one of the missing legions(!)
They were lead by the Primarch Malibron, name unknown but I can tell you there was some bright yellow and red combination for the colours
To summarise the events, the Legion got their butts kicked and lost a huge number of marines bringing the system to compliance - basically their capital ship, containing thousands of marines and a large proportion of the legion, was destroyed (there was a really cool 'mass battle' of the Legions assaulting a fortress while bits of the ship landed on the board during the game!). The Gedrenites (the conquered foes) had access to forbidden cloning tech. After compliance, Malibron virus-bombed the world that had been responsible for destroying his Capital ship, then tried to steal the cloning tech for his own purposes to replenish his legion, ending up with a massive cluster-feth that resulted in 'blue on blue' and Legionnaries fighting against each other, and when the dust had settled ultimately ended up with Malibron being sent back to Terra in chains. Corax was then responsible for disposing of the cloning tech (which is a nice segway into that later background material for the Raven Guard..)
So.. not really official at all! But in light of words by Rick Priestly and others I think probably the closest we will ever get to it!
xerxeskingofking wrote: im quite partial to an idea floated on a Facebook group i'm in as a joke, namely that the two missing primarchs landed on ork held worlds, and, like all but one of their brothers, rose to the top and took control of thier worlds and powerful Warbosses. they were eventually found and killed by the expanding Great Crusade, but are remembered in orkish folk-lore as Gork and Mork.....
That's a really great idea
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/30 15:24:24
ph34r wrote:"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
That's a really cool bit of info ph34r! Which story is that and who wrote it?
I would be amazed if that the unspoken name that Horus was trying to say, as that event was probably 12-13 years ago now.
The other snippet was that the first 'blue on blue', or instance of marine fighting marine, was World Eaters (or War Hounds) and Space Wolves. That was a 'special battle' at the event (if you read Battle Report - Gedren Prime Campaign: the final battle in the blog I linked) that was between myself and a guy called Wold Lord Mjolnir on the forum (not his real name! He had an amazingly converted Space Wolf army that was put on display in WHW for a while). We were told at the time that this might get written into official HH lore. I haven't completely kept up with the series, and in particular have missed a few of the novellas and audio books - do you know if that ever actually happened?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/30 17:52:35
@The_Grim_Angel - I'm not sure to be honest. I think it would have had to be something so awful that their memory was censured. I suppose the stuff about Malibron would line up with that if it were canon; He used exterminatus on a defenseless world that had already surrendered (in a fit of pique?) which would otherwise have been brought into the Imperium and also stole dark age/forbidden tech for cloning technology to rebuild his legion. The large volume of Marines lost in that conflict would explain where the rest of the Space Marines went (we know from other HH books that some of the Legions were swelled with members of disbanded Legions, although it is presented as a rumour). Although otherwise we don't know anything about the lost Primarch or his Legion.
ph34r wrote:"Malibron" begins with "Mal-". Obviously no definite conclusion is reachable here, but I really like that this old piece of fan-fiction slots perfectly into a very recent "lost primarch name" lore snippet.
That's a really cool bit of info ph34r! Which story is that and who wrote it?
Here is the (spoilers, obviously!) snippet from the story "The Last Council" by Laurie Goulding.
*snip*
I would be amazed if that the unspoken name that Horus was trying to say, as that event was probably 12-13 years ago now.
The other snippet was that the first 'blue on blue', or instance of marine fighting marine, was World Eaters (or War Hounds) and Space Wolves. That was a 'special battle' at the event (if you read Battle Report - Gedren Prime Campaign: the final battle in the blog I linked) that was between myself and a guy called Wold Lord Mjolnir on the forum (not his real name! He had an amazingly converted Space Wolf army that was put on display in WHW for a while). We were told at the time that this might get written into official HH lore. I haven't completely kept up with the series, and in particular have missed a few of the novellas and audio books - do you know if that ever actually happened?
Wow, amazingly enough the first instance of marine fighting marine is actually exactly that: World Eaters and Space Wolves.
The book 'Betrayer' by Aaron Dembski-Bowden apparently includes this information as summarized on this lexicanum page: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Night_of_the_Wolf Basically when Angron took command of his legion he went about killing a whole lot of civilians. As told by Angron to Lorgar, the Emperor dispatched Russ to go tell Angron to stop killing so many civilians. The Space Wolves and World Eaters fought, Russ and Angron fought, and hostilities ceased after Angron dueled Russ, winning the duel but ending up being surrounded by a fatal encirclement of Space Wolves, who could have killed Angron at a word. Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson, and in Angron's retelling of this to Lorgar, Lorgar believes that Angron was foolish to believe himself the 'victor'.
Spoiler:
The Night of the Wolf is the term given to a confrontation between the Space Wolves and World Eaters Space Marine Legions during the Great Crusade.
Occurring shortly after the rediscovery of Angron, the Space Wolves Primarch Leman Russ was supposedly dispatched by the Emperor himself to confront Angron on Malkoya. There, Russ demanded that Angron cease the wholesale massacre of civilians and defeated human enemies and halt the practice of installing the mind-altering Butcher's Nails in his own warriors or face censor on Terra. Angron scoffed at the notion and expressed doubt that the Emperor had truly sent him. He then went on to openly insult the Emperor as a slave-driver and even jokingly insinuated he might take the Imperial throne for himself. Horrified by this "heresy", Russ and Angron came to blows as their respective legions battled around them. Angron shattered Russ' Frost Blade Krakenmaw and Leman Russ destroyed Angrons Chainaxe Widowmaker, after a brief but intense duel Angron finally defeated the Primarch in single combat. The boasting Angron was soon silenced when Leman Russ revealed his true strategy, in the process of the duel Angron had allowed himself to be surrounded by Space Wolves forces, Russ had held back deliberatly in a desperate attempt to help his brother come to sense and beat the effects of his Butchers Nails. Though he had apparently lost the duel, Russ could have ordered his forces to kill Angron with just a single word but chose to withdraw instead. Despite this Angron still saw the battle as a victory, the World Eaters inflicted a greater number of casualties than they endured, and he saw it as a humiliation for the Wolves.[1]
In truth, many such as Lorgar had seen the incident as an embarrassment for the World Eaters, displaying their lack of discipline and Angron's reckless tactics. The fight had revealed Angrons rage and arrogance as a great weakness.[1]
Thanks for sharing, these snippets of wargaming history are very interesting! And well, it looks like they did in fact make it to Horus Heresy canon! Any other neat story moments?
Wow - thanks for that ph34r - that's pretty mad! No way of course if knowing if that was a deliberate thing or not by ADB, as of all the Legions the Space Wolves and World Eaters would probably be the most likely to come to blows.
The game we played in the event was actually almost the other way round. As opposed to the Primarchs, a Wolf Guard had butchered the World Eater Commander he was fighting but then afterwards found himself surrounded by World Eater Troopers or pointing their guns at him. As a narrative though I think it makes more sense for the Space Wolves to be doing the surrounding, and then it serve to expose that Russ was a thinker as well as a warrior, and that Angron had a short-sighted tactical acumen despite his ferocity.
I didn't realise Laurie had written that story - that could definitely be an 'in joke/comment' there to some of the old TGC crew and Graham McNeil.
Easily disguised too (and of course you don't know for sure) as he could easily of just been trying to say 'Malcador'.
I'm afraid I think that's it for tit-bits but will try and have a think, it was a while ago now!
Thanks Ketara - that's a really interesting summary! Quite a lot in there that I hadn't heard of read before.
-That one of the Primarchs was considered 'Lost' before he was even found by the Emperor.
Why would that Primarch have a status raised in their honour if that was the case? It would have been just 19 statues (going on the short story @ph34r referenced)
I suppose the Graham McNeil/Laurie Goulding fan campaign/narrative piece could tie up with Rangdan. Given a choice between execution and death in battle 'Mal' (as his friends call him) is allowed a final assault on that species as part of that campaign.
I read quite an interesting piece once about Feudal Japan, where disgraced nobility and their wards were allowed to carry out a suicidal charge in battle as an alternative to Sepuku. Perhaps something like that?
That would also explain Horus' (quite angry) reaction to Malcador removing their statues, if they were perceived to have been lost or defeated in some honourable fashion (or something that he, as a warrior, deemed honourable).
He would hardly have had that reaction if the other Primarch had been treasonous, or had just been some 'foe' at the head of an alien empire that had fought the Emperor rather than side with him (although in that instance he wouldn't have had a status there in the first place).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/02 16:49:40
Just like he did with the thunder warriors, I have wondered if one of the primachs discovered the fate of the thunder warriors and realised that the astartes were just tool to be used and disposed of.
I think this ties into a common complaint with the way the Heresy story developed.
There was a real potential for there to be a causality behind the Heresy that tied into the fate of the Thunder Warriors. Like you say, that they were a tool that were disposed of once their usefulness was done.
It would have been easy to tie this in with the travails of the Great Crusade. Thousands of Astartes living and dying over hundreds of years for an Imperium (and an Emperor?) that just saw them as tools and something that had no place in a peaceful galaxy, should that ever have been achieved.
What we would have then had was a real meat on the bones of the story, a real reason for rebellion.
Instead, the series veered very much towards science fantasy (and unfortunately that dreadful trope of 'A wizard did it' - please look this up if you don't know the reference) where the Imperium being split in two, the galaxy set aflame, because Horus got stabbed by a magic sword - he saw future stuff, and then you've got that massive causal leap of whatever dreams he had being strong enough to undo hundreds of years of following his father and being part of that system.
I quite liked the Laurie Goulding story posted above as it veered a little bit towards the former. Perhaps the Emperor (or Malcador at least) was a bit of a cad, and thought that the Primarchs (and by extension the Astartes) should know their place? He drove the Warmaster of the Imperium's armies, one of the most powerful warriors in the galaxy who had armies of millions following his lead, down to his knees - almost slew him - over the utterance of a name. That really showed who was boss!
How might that story have reverberated with the other Primarchs that saw Horus treated in this way, not to mention Horus' humiliation? You can imagine, as they hear word that another ten thousand legionnaires have been slain on the far rim of the galaxy, their passage unremembered and unheralded by the fat aristocrats and administratrum that nestled safely and comfortably in Sol.
That very much comes back around to the 'better to rule in hell than serve in heaven' message, the Paradise Lost quote that was (at one time, apparently) meant to have served as Horus' motivation to turn against his father in the original Heresy fluff. It's a shame there wasn't a little bit more of it in the series, and something that could pull in characters with emotions of betrayal and fear that you could relate to, rather than two-dimensional 'evil' demons whispering lies into their ears.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/03 16:49:39
totalfailure wrote: It’s something I’d rather see them just leave alone, and not explore any deeper. With the hit and miss nature of the fiction, the odds are just too high that any ‘big reveal’ will just be sales fodder, and deeply disappointing narratively. Some things are better left to speculation.
I kind of agree..
We have already read far more about them than was originally envisaged. Rick Priestly said that it was meant to be something that had happened so long ago that even the names of heroes and Primarchs are mixed up and forgotten, it was literally just the time of legend.
Also, if any new official update now, it will almost certainly be that Cawl travelled back in time to create himself, and ensure his name spreading through and overwhelming every single piece of 40k lore, even the bits that happened thousands of years before he existed.
Again why do mind-wipe them, instead to simply say: «I'm sorry, but your Primarch is dead, so we need to put you under the command of the Ultramarines»? This is the only thing I have problems to understand.
