Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know the community pretty much memes them into being just Xenos hunters, but exactly how effective are they against Traitor Astartes and daemons?

I know faith manifests itself in unique ways in 40k, but it just feels like if there were a group of Thousand Sons, for example, it would be much more effective to send someone like the Blood Angels to deal with them since they have psykers.

It feels like bringing faith up against psykers is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Nothing is guaranteed with faith. That's why it's called faith. It's belief. But with a psyker, that's power that a Librarian has access too whenever he wants and can use that power whenever he needs to.

 LorgarWasRight wrote:
I know the community pretty much memes them into being just Xenos hunters, but exactly how effective are they against Traitor Astartes and daemons?

I know faith manifests itself in unique ways in 40k, but it just feels like if there were a group of Thousand Sons, for example, it would be much more effective to send someone like the Blood Angels to deal with them since they have psykers.

It feels like bringing faith up against psykers is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Nothing is guaranteed with faith. That's why it's called faith. It's belief. But with a psyker, that's power that a Librarian has access too whenever he wants and can use that power whenever he needs to.

maybe, but in a setting where strong Faith (ie unified thoughts) is effectively the same thing as psykers, its not really a issue, its just a question of weather the BTs faith (a result of a deliberate and intensive indoctrination and conditioning programme)is stronger than the Will of the psyker they are facing, which is bacially the same thing as would happen if your had a Librarian with you (ie Will vs Will).

remember, this a a setting where Ork technology canonically runs on "clap you hands if you believe" style mass belief that it works. sufficent Faith in the Empeor is actaully a viable defence against psykers.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 LorgarWasRight wrote:
I know the community pretty much memes them into being just Xenos hunters, but exactly how effective are they against Traitor Astartes and daemons?

I know faith manifests itself in unique ways in 40k, but it just feels like if there were a group of Thousand Sons, for example, it would be much more effective to send someone like the Blood Angels to deal with them since they have psykers.

It feels like bringing faith up against psykers is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Nothing is guaranteed with faith. That's why it's called faith. It's belief. But with a psyker, that's power that a Librarian has access too whenever he wants and can use that power whenever he needs to.

maybe, but in a setting where strong Faith (ie unified thoughts) is effectively the same thing as psykers, its not really a issue, its just a question of weather the BTs faith (a result of a deliberate and intensive indoctrination and conditioning programme)is stronger than the Will of the psyker they are facing, which is bacially the same thing as would happen if your had a Librarian with you (ie Will vs Will).

remember, this a a setting where Ork technology canonically runs on "clap you hands if you believe" style mass belief that it works. sufficent Faith in the Empeor is actaully a viable defence against psykers.

Gotta correct you a bit on the Ork tech part, because I think it's one of the most misconstrued fluff pieces in 40k due to people memeing it up online with "hurr durr, Orks think its true, it happens". The gestalt psychic field that Orks generate act like a psychic grease moreso than a literal "belief=it works" mechanic. So Ork tech does work on its own (there are several stories where non-Ork species are able to use their technology, i.e. Yarrick with an Ork Power Klaw, Iron Warriors commandeering an ork plane, etc.) it's just that with the gestalt psychic field it works far better and more effectively in Ork hands.

That tangent aside, I would say that the BT's faith actually makes them more resistant to psykers than most chapters, who usually have to rely solely on their Librarius to combat psychic foes or warp phemonema. It means the defense is more spread out across the entirety of the chapter. Furthermore, the Templars have several relics (like the skull of the Cacodominus) and specialized weaponry like Witchseeker Bolts to combat psyker abilities given that they themselves lack psykers. The Templars are quite similar to Sisters of Battle in that sense, and given that both are well known for hunting down psykers successfully, I would argue that they have an advantage in the sense that they don't suffer from the tools that are often used against psykers (i.e. the Pariah Nexus).

Eh, the Pariah Nexus should have been *particularly* painful and effective against those who relied on faith and miracles, since those relate closely to warp phenomena. Bad fluff that it didn't render the SoB even more ineffective than everyone else.

The people who should have been resistant to it should have been the Talons of the Emperor; Sisters of Silence because they're blanks and Custodes because temperamentally they are less the bleating, shrieking, unthinking fanatics that the SoB are.

Hecaton wrote:
Eh, the Pariah Nexus should have been *particularly* painful and effective against those who relied on faith and miracles, since those relate closely to warp phenomena. Bad fluff that it didn't render the SoB even more ineffective than everyone else.

The people who should have been resistant to it should have been the Talons of the Emperor; Sisters of Silence because they're blanks and Custodes because temperamentally they are less the bleating, shrieking, unthinking fanatics that the SoB are.

Is it possible that the nexus doesn't impact phenomenon that aren't "traditionally" psychic? Maybe psykers use a more specific/specialized/overt mechanism of harnessing the warp than ork belief, sister faith, etc. If so, it's possible the nexus targets that mechanism specifically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Gotta correct you a bit on the Ork tech part, because I think it's one of the most misconstrued fluff pieces in 40k due to people memeing it up online with "hurr durr, Orks think its true, it happens". The gestalt psychic field that Orks generate act like a psychic grease moreso than a literal "belief=it works" mechanic. So Ork tech does work on its own (there are several stories where non-Ork species are able to use their technology, i.e. Yarrick with an Ork Power Klaw, Iron Warriors commandeering an ork plane, etc.) it's just that with the gestalt psychic field it works far better and more effectively in Ork hands.

Isn't it more a case of ork tech sometimes working on its own and sometimes not? There are those tidbits of fluff about tech priests being frustrated that they can't figure out how ork tech functions at all despite knowing that it was working right before someone killed the guy holding it. I always got the impression that something like a truk had to generally make enough sense to mostly follow the laws of physics, but the waagh field filled in some of the blanks that the orks missed. So if the truk is missing its spark plugs or whatever, that doesn't necessarily stop the truk from running so long as no one becomes overly aware that a vital piece is missing.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Is it possible that the nexus doesn't impact phenomenon that aren't "traditionally" psychic? Maybe psykers use a more specific/specialized/overt mechanism of harnessing the warp than ork belief, sister faith, etc. If so, it's possible the nexus targets that mechanism specifically.

Not really, because they never describe it that way. The SoB's faith powers break the established rules of the setting; the Warp is the realm of emotions, including faith, and their powers should interact with it in similar ways. Instead, by making them "magic" (when magic already exists in the setting and has rules), it just comes off as new writers misunderstanding the setting and trying to make SoB a snowflakey faction.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Eh, the Pariah Nexus should have been *particularly* painful and effective against those who relied on faith and miracles, since those relate closely to warp phenomena. Bad fluff that it didn't render the SoB even more ineffective than everyone else.

The people who should have been resistant to it should have been the Talons of the Emperor; Sisters of Silence because they're blanks and Custodes because temperamentally they are less the bleating, shrieking, unthinking fanatics that the SoB are.

Is it possible that the nexus doesn't impact phenomenon that aren't "traditionally" psychic? Maybe psykers use a more specific/specialized/overt mechanism of harnessing the warp than ork belief, sister faith, etc. If so, it's possible the nexus targets that mechanism specifically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Gotta correct you a bit on the Ork tech part, because I think it's one of the most misconstrued fluff pieces in 40k due to people memeing it up online with "hurr durr, Orks think its true, it happens". The gestalt psychic field that Orks generate act like a psychic grease moreso than a literal "belief=it works" mechanic. So Ork tech does work on its own (there are several stories where non-Ork species are able to use their technology, i.e. Yarrick with an Ork Power Klaw, Iron Warriors commandeering an ork plane, etc.) it's just that with the gestalt psychic field it works far better and more effectively in Ork hands.

Isn't it more a case of ork tech sometimes working on its own and sometimes not? There are those tidbits of fluff about tech priests being frustrated that they can't figure out how ork tech functions at all despite knowing that it was working right before someone killed the guy holding it. I always got the impression that something like a truk had to generally make enough sense to mostly follow the laws of physics, but the waagh field filled in some of the blanks that the orks missed. So if the truk is missing its spark plugs or whatever, that doesn't necessarily stop the truk from running so long as no one becomes overly aware that a vital piece is missing.

Those fluff tidbits are often from the in-universe view of tech priests and are shown to be very biased given their religious dogma. The specific report, often quoted, was originally printed in the 3rd edition codex. Do you know what the fluff piece report was immediately preceding? A piece on how a different scientist explained not to underestimate Orks, that they were much more complex and intelligent than the Imperium gave them credit for. The notes on the report by the imperium stated not to believe the report.

The piece of fluff before that? A short story about an imperial scientist being tortured by the inquisition for daring to suggest that Orks were intelligent and capable of great tactical skill and cunning.

The report that was accepted by the imperium? The one that everyone quotes? The one that makes Orks out to be too stupid to build working technology. The one that made incredible leaps of logic that even Nigel Farage would pause and say “hang on… that’s a huge leap of logic, based on a false premise, backed up by dodgy data and misinformation… and it’s a little bit racist.”

Hecaton wrote:
Eh, the Pariah Nexus should have been *particularly* painful and effective against those who relied on faith and miracles, since those relate closely to warp phenomena. Bad fluff that it didn't render the SoB even more ineffective than everyone else.

The people who should have been resistant to it should have been the Talons of the Emperor; Sisters of Silence because they're blanks and Custodes because temperamentally they are less the bleating, shrieking, unthinking fanatics that the SoB are.

A good author probably would have had the Sisters affected by the Nexus, but their faith allows them to continue where others give in or falter.

Instead we just got Hur Hur Faith is Magic!

Wyldhunt wrote:


Isn't it more a case of ork tech sometimes working on its own and sometimes not? There are those tidbits of fluff about tech priests being frustrated that they can't figure out how ork tech functions at all despite knowing that it was working right before someone killed the guy holding it. I always got the impression that something like a truk had to generally make enough sense to mostly follow the laws of physics, but the waagh field filled in some of the blanks that the orks missed. So if the truk is missing its spark plugs or whatever, that doesn't necessarily stop the truk from running so long as no one becomes overly aware that a vital piece is missing.

Remember that the orks were engineered by the Old Ones with the literal innate knowledge of how to build all their technology encoded into their genetics. And that tech priests are the same folks who follow the ideology of "we do it this way because it's been done like for 10,000 years, there's no other way to accomplish the same task", and then say a lengthy prayer before hitting the activation rune on their logic machines. Just because a tech priest doesn't understand ork technology doesn't mean it's not working the way it's supposed to.

There used to be a rule in the old Black Templars Codex that minor psychic powers had no effect on Black Templar units or characters and if a Black Templar unit or character was targeted or in the AOE of a psychic power, it only worked if the psyker rolled a 5+ on a D6.

Does anything like that exist anymore where BTs can just stop psykers cold like that?

-STS

In a word, yes.

All space marine chapters have faith in the emperor in their own way. I don't think Black Templars have any more than other chapters they are just more extreme but that doesn't mean more faithful.

Its been proven that psykers are a very potent weapon especially against those who don't employ their own. Its just a tool they don't have that others do, like not having heavy tanks, its a disadvantage but one you can overcome.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Isn't it more a case of ork tech sometimes working on its own and sometimes not? There are those tidbits of fluff about tech priests being frustrated that they can't figure out how ork tech functions at all despite knowing that it was working right before someone killed the guy holding it. I always got the impression that something like a truk had to generally make enough sense to mostly follow the laws of physics, but the waagh field filled in some of the blanks that the orks missed. So if the truk is missing its spark plugs or whatever, that doesn't necessarily stop the truk from running so long as no one becomes overly aware that a vital piece is missing.

No. That is just priest being idiot. Ciaphas Cain spends a whole book behind enemy lines using captured ork guns and vehicles and they work just fine with some enginseer maintenance, despite Jurgen turning any psychic fields around off.

slade the sniper wrote:
There used to be a rule in the old Black Templars Codex that minor psychic powers had no effect on Black Templar units or characters and if a Black Templar unit or character was targeted or in the AOE of a psychic power, it only worked if the psyker rolled a 5+ on a D6.

Does anything like that exist anymore where BTs can just stop psykers cold like that?

Kind of, but so do Iron Hands, except they use cold logic to fact the psykers off instead of screeching fundamentalist dogma, sooo...