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The jolly man in red left me some sorcerers in blue. That is to say I received the Start Collecting Thousand sons and a box of Tzaangor. This brings my 1ksons collection up to...

* Ahriman (optionally on disc)
* 15 rubricae (including 2 aspiring sorcerers)
* 20 Tzaangor
* Some non-40k minis that are sufficiently magical/mutanty/Egyptian-themed to probably work well as daemon princes, forge fiends, etc.

I also have my non-1ksons chaos marines and (mostly Slaaneshi) daemons including something like 50(?) cultists.

I love the Thousand Sons' lore including that of Ahriman himself, but I don't own the Codex yet or have a good idea of how 1k Sons play in 9th edition. Any tips for a new aspiring sorcerer? A few specific questions:

* How do we pop tanks? I'm sure inferno bolts and psychic powers could chip through eventually, but I feel like I'm overlooking some sort of heavy weapons option. Do defilers or land raiders or forge fiends work for us?
* I have a bunch of partially-incomplete daemon princes that could be made battle read with some creative converting and greenstuffing. I know that the flying daemon circus used to be a thing, but is it still worthwhile?
* Are Tzaangor and Rubricae bombs still worth it? Part of me likes the idea of using the Dark Matter Crystal and other redeployment options to dump a squad of Tzaangor and rubricae in my opponent's face turn 1, but maybe those units aren't really durable/intimidating enough to warrant it?
* Glancing at Battlescribe, all the cults seem pretty neat. Are there any that are especially good or that look good but are actually traps? I'm a bit of a hipster, so I often enjoy playing the suboptimal and flavorful options in the game, but I don't want to end up picking one that's miserable to use. Also, do the cults come with their own paint schemes? Being able to change up cults between games would be great, but I can commit to a cult paint scheme if they do have their own looks.
*Does fielding Ahriman tie a detachment to a specific cult? If so, I may end up having to field him with my cultists in a separate patrol or something unless I end up liking (I assume) Prophecy.

Hail fellow auger of the warp. I can only answer a few of these questions because I have not played 9th yet. Perhaps a grander magus than myself can verify what I write and answer what I cannot.

1ksons seem to have been hit VERY hard by 9th edition. Without even playing the edition I can tell you that the bulk of our power and balance was contained in our leader positions. Now that we cannot take most of those we have been left with a bare bones power armor list.

Deamon Princes are still likely very good choices. Tzzangor bombs have no been worth it since early 8th. Rubric bombs have gotten better but its still a bomb with s4 2ap bolters. The contents of the latest campaign expansions have helped out Rubrics a ton. A viable choice I am sure in 9th.

We pop tanks in much the way other armies do, but with smite spam if able. Our HW choices are ancient (preds and helbrutes) but with the Demon Engine buff perhaps that will pick up the slack. Either way, it has never been a strong point of the faction. I would look into forgeworld for your armor busting needs.

Cults are all "decent". Some are very powerful, others situational. None of them are outright bad.

Im sure Ahri is still a beast. Id stay away from Tzangs imho. To expensive for how fast they die. And without the early 8th bomb tricks they wont last long. Perhaps others find them more useful and can educate us both on the finer uses of them.

I myself would never run non Tz demons with 1ksons. But thats me. No rule is stopping you I am aware of. But you will probably want to run demons in their own detachment (not sure how 9th handles detachments so this may not be good advice).

Either way, sorry I could not be of more help, but I saw no one had answered yet so I thought I would with my limited knowledge.

OP - Tsons are one of my favorites! Welcome to the Brotherhood of Sorcerers!

So far 9th has been extremely unkind to us from a competitive standpoint, but for garage games we still have a lot going for us. The changes to smite and the force-org charts have been pretty damning. Targeted smites were the best way for us to deal with heavy armor, but now that we are no longer immune to the penalty for repeated castings, this is a lot less reliable than it use to be.

I find that where I use to be very aggressive with my Tsons, I now have to play much more defensively, and also find myself playing much more to the objectives as we don’t quite have the “punch” we once had in 8th.

That said, it’s not all bad!

Right off the bat Ahriman is the absolute man. Not only is he a beast, he’s legitimately fun to use. I have a version of him on disc and a version on foot for smaller games but I almost never leave home without him. Would recommend bolstering him with a demon prince and an exalted sorcerer on disk. He can be included in a cult detachment w/out breaking the cult rules, but cannot himself receive cult powers or artifacts.

For Rubrics - they’re in a weird spot right now. A lot of folks will tell you they aren’t that great but I love mine. I think the humble Rubric is under-rated. That said, they are going to eventually get 2 wounds and some other as yet unkown changes when they get their book. I worry that the price increase that will come with that second wound will actually make them too expensive to be useful. I would stick with the 15 for now.

You will also want to look at Scarab Occult Termintors. These guys are fantastic and actually competitively costed. They are great for a lot of the things 9th Ed requires of a unit.

Would also recommend checking out demons. Tsons synergies really well with Tzeentch Demons and things like large units of pink horrors (with enough points set aside to split into blue and brimstone horrors) are strong. Especially if you get the demon codex so that you can summon a herald to buff them that much more.

Would recommend getting your hands on their psychic awakening book as well as a few of the cults from that book are pretty clutch in 9th as well. I’ve had a lot of luck with Duplicity, Time, and Mutation myself.

Thanks for the great feedback! I don't see myself going to tournaments any time soon, especially with my newer, smaller army, so being a bit low on the power curve isn't that big a problem. (Hooray!) It's good to be able to set my expectations for unit performance a bit better though. If big blobs of rubrics aren't really a thing, for instance, then I'm probably better off going MSU to squeeze in more aspiring sorcerers and make transports more of an option.

I'll definitely take another look at scarab occult termies and daemon allies. Maybe there's some play in having splitting horrors holding my backfield objectives and teleporting tarpit cultist/tzaangor blobs into my opponent's face and holding the middle ground with mechanized rubricae.

I'm sort of torn on buying the books right now. GW seems to be in a hurry to update all the marine books in short order. It would be frustrating to buy two rulebooks only to have them both invalidated and replaced with a third in a few months. Plus, Battle Scribe has *most* of the content. (Just not the strats).

Oh! By the way. I *think* I have all the bits for a Tzeentch daemons flamer chariot. My inclination is to turn its bits into a tzeentch herald, disc for a sorcerer, and some flamers, but is it worth keeping as a single unit on its own instead?

Tycho wrote:
OP - Tsons are one of my favorites! Welcome to the Brotherhood of Sorcerers!

So far 9th has been extremely unkind to us from a competitive standpoint, but for garage games we still have a lot going for us. The changes to smite and the force-org charts have been pretty damning. Targeted smites were the best way for us to deal with heavy armor, but now that we are no longer immune to the penalty for repeated castings, this is a lot less reliable than it use to be.

I find that where I use to be very aggressive with my Tsons, I now have to play much more defensively, and also find myself playing much more to the objectives as we don’t quite have the “punch” we once had in 8th.

That said, it’s not all bad!

Right off the bat Ahriman is the absolute man. Not only is he a beast, he’s legitimately fun to use. I have a version of him on disc and a version on foot for smaller games but I almost never leave home without him. Would recommend bolstering him with a demon prince and an exalted sorcerer on disk. He can be included in a cult detachment w/out breaking the cult rules, but cannot himself receive cult powers or artifacts.

For Rubrics - they’re in a weird spot right now. A lot of folks will tell you they aren’t that great but I love mine. I think the humble Rubric is under-rated. That said, they are going to eventually get 2 wounds and some other as yet unkown changes when they get their book. I worry that the price increase that will come with that second wound will actually make them too expensive to be useful. I would stick with the 15 for now.

You will also want to look at Scarab Occult Termintors. These guys are fantastic and actually competitively costed. They are great for a lot of the things 9th Ed requires of a unit.

Would also recommend checking out demons. Tsons synergies really well with Tzeentch Demons and things like large units of pink horrors (with enough points set aside to split into blue and brimstone horrors) are strong. Especially if you get the demon codex so that you can summon a herald to buff them that much more.

Would recommend getting your hands on their psychic awakening book as well as a few of the cults from that book are pretty clutch in 9th as well. I’ve had a lot of luck with Duplicity, Time, and Mutation myself.

Huh, I did not know it was that bad. In what book was smite changed? Did it specifically target 1ksons? It was pretty much the only thing we had going for us outside of demon princes/ahriman.
Without a massive overhaul to our line and addition of more heavy firepower to make up for the loss of targeted smites I see this being the worst faction in warhammer 40k.

Huh, I did not know it was that bad. In what book was smite changed? Did it specifically target 1ksons? It was pretty much the only thing we had going for us outside of demon princes/ahriman.
Without a massive overhaul to our line and addition of more heavy firepower to make up for the loss of targeted smites I see this being the worst faction in warhammer 40k.

Smite was changed in the rules themselves. This was never actually in the codex. It use to be that Tsons and Grey Knights could cast it as many times as they had casters without penalty. This is no longer true, so you now have a penalty each time after the first. -1 on the second casting, -2 on the third, etc etc. They have made it clear we will not be getting back so it is what it is. I still cast multi-smites, but it's not what it once was.

We probably are currently, one of the worst factions. We need some additional rounding out and more ways to do more damage psychically if the Smite rule is to remain in place. That said, they are still my favorite army to play. You can actually do somewhat well with them (even in a semi-competitive environment) if you play well. My army relies on lots of tricks to draw people out of position, and then teleporting at exactly the right moment to take advantage. It's not easy at all, but it's so much fun.

You will be fine in garage games. you will only notice most of the issues if you try to go more competitive.

Tycho wrote:

Huh, I did not know it was that bad. In what book was smite changed? Did it specifically target 1ksons? It was pretty much the only thing we had going for us outside of demon princes/ahriman.
Without a massive overhaul to our line and addition of more heavy firepower to make up for the loss of targeted smites I see this being the worst faction in warhammer 40k.

Smite was changed in the rules themselves. This was never actually in the codex. It use to be that Tsons and Grey Knights could cast it as many times as they had casters without penalty. This is no longer true, so you now have a penalty each time after the first. -1 on the second casting, -2 on the third, etc etc. They have made it clear we will not be getting back so it is what it is. I still cast multi-smites, but it's not what it once was.

We probably are currently, one of the worst factions. We need some additional rounding out and more ways to do more damage psychically if the Smite rule is to remain in place. That said, they are still my favorite army to play. You can actually do somewhat well with them (even in a semi-competitive environment) if you play well. My army relies on lots of tricks to draw people out of position, and then teleporting at exactly the right moment to take advantage. It's not easy at all, but it's so much fun.

You will be fine in garage games. you will only notice most of the issues if you try to go more competitive.

Just one more reason to not come back. To many marine players were complaining about getting smite bombed I see *im being salty. Im sure more than marine players complained*. The whole reason for brotherhood of sorcs rule was so we didnt become the worse faction in the game. Now they take it away and say we are not getting it back? Talk about killing a line.

I doubt we will get any new models anytime soon so I look forward to how GW is going to unf@$k the faction. Ill always love my sons. But the red headed step child treatment by GW torwards anything not Imperial and marine have just gotten to be to much. Ill probably play Sons again, just cause they are my fav faction. But I wont be re-tooling my list to fix anything. Not giving a dime to dubs till we get a new and mediocre codex.

Anyhow OP, keep your head up. Dont take salty turds like myself to seriously. As Tycho said, its still fun to play them.

Just one more reason to not come back. To many marine players were complaining about getting smite bombed I see *im being salty. Im sure more than marine players complained*. The whole reason for brotherhood of sorcs rule was so we didnt become the worse faction in the game. Now they take it away and say we are not getting it back? Talk about killing a line.

Now that I think about it, I think what really hits us hardest is probably the new secondaries. Any of the psychic ones are a pita to pull off and generally take one of your valuable psykers out of commission for a few rounds, and smart opponents will take Abhor The Witch and Assassinate against you. This makes each of your characters worth something like 8 points a piece when they are killed. Given how "Look Out Sir" works now, it's pretty tough to not loose two over the course of a game. There are a few armies where the secondaries just really stack in ways they probably shouldn't, and ours is one.

That's why I mentioned playing defensively now. I've shifted from attacking spells to things like Glamour of Tzeentch, etc. My psykers hang out behind my Rubrics and just cast buff spells. Cult of Time is great for this type of play as the spell lets you return models to the unit. I find you really have to hunker down and try to outlast your opponent now, where before you could rocket sorcerers and demon princes across the board to "smite out" their key targets. It's a very different stye of play.

One thing that still works on occasion is using Risen Rubricae to drop a big block of Rubrics down in front of your opponent's deployment zone, and popping "Infernal Fusilade" turn 1. This allows an obscene number of shots to be fired and works well for early board control. Then, for extra frustration to your opponent, you can use the Cult of Duplicity power to teleport them away on turn 2 or 3. Basically leave them as a giant speed bump until they are in danger and then zip them away at the last second.

I am also a prospective Thousand Sons player.

i have been lurking forums like this one for a couple of months trying to decide if I want to take the dive, and if I do, what should be my first 2k points worth of army. I figured grabbing two of the start collecting box and a daemon prince would be a good start.

i have seen strategies to drop a tzaangor blob down and make a charge with them using the bray horn and the webway strike stratagem. From my understanding it is never worth giving them chainswords and pistols, just the Tzaangor blades.

The Psychic Ritual secondary seems fun, and An economic strategy I heard was using a tzaangor shaman to cast the ritual each turn. maybe you could save it for last to use up your opponents denies trying to stop the smites and other good powers.

The cult of time seems to compliment Scarab Occult terminators. Their pyschic power that restores 1 or D3 MODELS to a unit would be pretty cool to keep replenishing your tougher guys. Even better if rubrics go to 2W. If that happens I hope they don't go up in points. They are already at the new points cost for mini marines that went up to 2W.

Anyways! Excuse the random rant from an aspiring sorcerer waiting in the warp.

For anybody new to TS unless you are going to play several games right away I would probably not buy the codex/awakening book. Personally I think our book will be sooner rather than latter as I expect GW will want to get the 2W marine meta completed. And the book will probably change a lot of stuff. Since TS don’t have many data sheets anyway I think rubrics and SoT will be a good investment as I see them being at least mid-tier unless they are crazy over costed. Tgors are really over priced for what they do currently. The bomb is not reliable and if you don’t get the charge they drop like flies. Even if the charge works against 2W marines Tgors are not really effective. I have had 20 struggle against 1W marines. Also the enlightened are way to fragile for the price (both in points and real $$). I have 9 and unless there is a big spot to hide them they get whomped first turn. And even if they get somewhere intact their fire power is mediocre at best. For the cults time duplicity and magic are what I like. Duplicity is really good in 9th to teleport to objects. Hopefully our book will drop soon with some much needed units to expand our options.

For anybody new to TS unless you are going to play several games right away I would probably not buy the codex/awakening book. Personally I think our book will be sooner rather than latter as I expect GW will want to get the 2W marine meta completed. And the book will probably change a lot of stuff. Since TS don’t have many data sheets anyway I think rubrics and SoT will be a good investment as I see them being at least mid-tier unless they are crazy over costed. Tgors are really over priced for what they do currently. The bomb is not reliable and if you don’t get the charge they drop like flies. Even if the charge works against 2W marines Tgors are not really effective. I have had 20 struggle against 1W marines. Also the enlightened are way to fragile for the price (both in points and real $$). I have 9 and unless there is a big spot to hide them they get whomped first turn. And even if they get somewhere intact their fire power is mediocre at best. For the cults time duplicity and magic are what I like. Duplicity is really good in 9th to teleport to objects. Hopefully our book will drop soon with some much needed units to expand our options.

Between Corona and the books that have to come in front of it, my guess is we are probably 6 months out from our dex.

For Rubrics - we know the cost increase already15-20% of the base cost. If that increase hits on top of the current cost/abilities- it’s probably too much. Puts them at the point where you end up wanting only a single squad for Risen Rubricae. The catch is, we don’t know how/if they’ve adjusted the current base cost and we don’t know what other changes are coming for them, so I’m not sure if they are a safe bet. OP has 15 already. Not sure I’d invest in more.

For Tzangors- They’re really good when used right. Just like how my sorcerers are now used much more defensively, so to are my Tzangors used very differently now than they were previously. They are not an offensive weapon. The Tzangors bomb isn’t generally, a good use anymore (IMO). They are still cheap enough and tough enough that they make really great objective campers. Also good for performing actions - “Investigate Sites”, “Raise Banners” etc. I like them over cultists due to being tougher with better combat should they need it. That said, if they’re fighting, something probably went wrong. All armies have had to change the way they play. I would say this goes double for us.