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2021/01/11 05:56:29
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
I have a quick question about how, according to the most recent FAQ, I should be running Reaper Autocannons on Chaos Terminators according to RAW.
I'm not sure if anyone has discussed this yet, but it seems that in the most recent points update, Chaos Terminators have been hit with quite the remarkable spelling error. Although the rest of their options are appropriately (over )costed, the option for using a Reaper Autocannon does not exist. Instead, the Termies now have points values for a Reaper Chaincannon. Assuming this is an error, it will likely be quickly fixed, but for now, what exactly am I supposed to do with my Reaper Autocannons at the moment? Does this mean that until the error gets fixed, they're technically not legal to run in tournaments? In that case, what do I do with my Autocannon Termie?
Also, since Lightning Claws are similarly unlisted, does that mean they're free?
I'm sorry if any of this seems like me being purposefully obtuse; I'm somewhat new to army building and am unsure what to do in this instance.
2021/01/11 06:46:48
Subject: Re:Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
Strict RAW: The weapons you can take are on the datasheet, which hasn't changed. Any weapon for which there isn't a points cost listed is free. Therefore, reaper autocannons are now free, and you still can't take reaper chaincannons.
However, it is extremely obvious that it's a typo. For now, I would treat the cost listed for the chaincannon as the intended ponts cost for the reaper autocannon.
Lightning claws (and power swords/axes/mauls) are now free, and that probably is as intended. Upshot of this is that chainaxes are now obsolete on Termies.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
2021/01/11 10:35:27
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
Obvious typo is obvious and it would be truly obnoxious to pretend otherwise. It’s easy enough to handle until an FAQ fixes it.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2021/01/11 15:14:28
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
A TO can impose whatever House Rules they want on their tournament, so you'll need to ask them directly if they are following the RaW or making up House Rules. Since neither Reaper Autocannons nor Lightning Claws have a points cost listed, they are free to take.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/11 15:17:45
2021/01/11 20:07:00
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
Choosing that molehill to die on? I am not remotely surprised.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2021/01/11 20:16:34
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
JohnnyHell wrote: Choosing that molehill to die on? I am not remotely surprised.
He's not saying anything remotely controversial.
For right now, Reaper Autocannons are free. That may change when another FAQ is released.
I'm skeptical of the idea this is a typo. There's other examples from 9th edition books where "typos" turned out to be actual intent.
Deathwatch have a rule allowing Terminator's Crux Terminatus invul save to extend to entire Proteus Kill Teams. People were expecting it to be FAQed, but it wasn't. GW took the time to FAQ special rules for Bikers and Vanguard Vets, but not for Terminators.
isnt is so that you use the last known points ?? so autocannons cost the points in the codex (i only play codex points, there are to manny places where the points are
full compagny of bloodangels, 5000 pnt of epic bloodangels
5000 pnt imperial guard
5000 pnt orks
2500 pnt grey knights
5000 pnt gsc
5000 pnts Chaos legionars
4000 pnt tyranids
4000 pnt Tau
2021/01/12 18:28:51
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
skeleton wrote: isnt is so that you use the last known points ?? so autocannons cost the points in the codex (i only play codex points, there are to manny places where the points are
Current point values are in exactly one place.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2021/01/12 19:17:34
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
JohnnyHell wrote: Choosing that molehill to die on? I am not remotely surprised.
He's not saying anything remotely controversial.
For right now, Reaper Autocannons are free. That may change when another FAQ is released.
I'm skeptical of the idea this is a typo. There's other examples from 9th edition books where "typos" turned out to be actual intent.
Deathwatch have a rule allowing Terminator's Crux Terminatus invul save to extend to entire Proteus Kill Teams. People were expecting it to be FAQed, but it wasn't. GW took the time to FAQ special rules for Bikers and Vanguard Vets, but not for Terminators.
You’re sceptical it’s a typo and somehow believe they instead added Reaper Chaincannons, a weapon not in the kit, to the unit’s possible options? Surrrrre. Your comparisons simply are not.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2021/01/12 20:31:24
Subject: Re:Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
skeleton wrote: isnt is so that you use the last known points ?? so autocannons cost the points in the codex (i only play codex points, there are to manny places where the points are
You do use the latest points.
Currently, the latest points are ALL found within the free MFM pdf. All other points costs in all other locations (for now) are invalid. When the DG codex releases, you'll use the points in the DG codex for their stuff, and so on for any later codexes.
2021/01/13 00:23:54
Subject: Re:Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
MUNITORUM FIELD MANUAL 2021 MK I wrote:You can use this book to determine the points (pts) value of each unit in your army. Each entry lists the unit’s size (i.e. how many models the unit can contain) and how many points the unit costs. If an entry has a unit cost of ‘x pts/model’, then the unit costs x points for every model in that unit. You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit).
The points values listed in this book replace any published previously, and should be used in your matched play games (or any of your games that are using points values). As with the previous edition of the Munitorum Field Manual, this book contains the points values for every single unit that, at the time of printing, are supported for matched play games, eliminating the need to flip back and forth between two or more books.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 00:24:27
2021/01/13 01:21:02
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
I would argue that the reaper chaincannon is meant to be the reaper autocannon, which is of course a RAI at the time of typing this- it's obviously not a weapon option they have listed in their codex for that unit.
The other options being free makes sense to me as they kit itself Includes a variety of weapon options but limited to one or two of each type. Before the current MFM you would need to buy 5 chaos terminator kits to get 5 chain axes to make the lowest cost build of the unit.for example, making many of the options free solves this problem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/13 01:23:18
2021/01/13 23:25:42
Subject: Chaos Terminators, Autocannons, and Points Values
blaktoof wrote: I would argue that the reaper chaincannon is meant to be the reaper autocannon, which is of course a RAI at the time of typing this- it's obviously not a weapon option they have listed in their codex for that unit.
The other options being free makes sense to me as they kit itself Includes a variety of weapon options but limited to one or two of each type. Before the current MFM you would need to buy 5 chaos terminator kits to get 5 chain axes to make the lowest cost build of the unit.for example, making many of the options free solves this problem.
It's clear there was an error in listing the Reaper Chaincannon. What I don't know is the nature of the error.
GW made power weapons free. I can look at Deathwing Terminators and see they are getting them for free too. The consistency on how those weapons are treated for Terminators makes sense.
I can look at other Terminator units to see how Reaper Autocannons are costed. Blightlord Terminators pay 5 points for a Reaper Autocannon. Relic Terminator squads in Space Marine armies pay 5 points for a Reaper Autocannon.
Then I look at the cost of Autocannons - they're more expensive. Guard units pay 10 points for an Autocannon. Chosen, Havocs, Fallen pay 10 points for an Autocannon.
While it might seem like the simplest and most likely explanation is that the Reaper Autocannon should cost the same as it does for another Chaos Faction, why is it cheaper than a regular Autocannon? Is the nature of the error just a cut and paste job on the Chaos Terminator entry, or is it something more general?
I'd prefer an explanation from GW instead of guessing their intent. It's still a new edition and I don't exactly understand the logic behind the points.
blaktoof wrote: I would argue that the reaper chaincannon is meant to be the reaper autocannon, which is of course a RAI at the time of typing this- it's obviously not a weapon option they have listed in their codex for that unit.
The other options being free makes sense to me as they kit itself Includes a variety of weapon options but limited to one or two of each type. Before the current MFM you would need to buy 5 chaos terminator kits to get 5 chain axes to make the lowest cost build of the unit.for example, making many of the options free solves this problem.
It's clear there was an error in listing the Reaper Chaincannon. What I don't know is the nature of the error.
GW made power weapons free. I can look at Deathwing Terminators and see they are getting them for free too. The consistency on how those weapons are treated for Terminators makes sense.
I can look at other Terminator units to see how Reaper Autocannons are costed. Blightlord Terminators pay 5 points for a Reaper Autocannon. Relic Terminator squads in Space Marine armies pay 5 points for a Reaper Autocannon.
Then I look at the cost of Autocannons - they're more expensive. Guard units pay 10 points for an Autocannon. Chosen, Havocs, Fallen pay 10 points for an Autocannon.
While it might seem like the simplest and most likely explanation is that the Reaper Autocannon should cost the same as it does for another Chaos Faction, why is it cheaper than a regular Autocannon? Is the nature of the error just a cut and paste job on the Chaos Terminator entry, or is it something more general?
I'd prefer an explanation from GW instead of guessing their intent. It's still a new edition and I don't exactly understand the logic behind the points.
In these cases, the weapon exchanged is different. Autocannons are almost always a swap for a free basic weapon (Lasgun or Bolter). Reaper Autocannons are for Terminators are a swap for a normal 3 Point Combi-Bolter. GW decided to give you a discount at 5 points rather than charging the 7 point difference between 3 and 10 points.
This is a common thing when it comes to points valuation of units. In 8th, they would determine a Terminator with Combi-Bolter and Power Sword was worth 28 points. They then note that a Combi-Bolter is 3, and Power Sword is 5, and therefore a Terminator is 20 points. You would then be forced to check in three different places to determine the value of your Terminator with Combi-Bolter and Power Sword (Unit Points, Range Weapon Points, and Melee Weapon Points). Now in 9th,they say a Terminator is worth 28 points and these few things increase the points and it is all listed together.
)costed, the option for using a Reaper Autocannon does not exist. Instead, the Termies now have points values for a Reaper Chaincannon. Assuming this is an error, it will likely be quickly fixed, but for now, what exactly am I supposed to do with my Reaper Autocannons at the moment? Does this mean that until the error gets fixed, they're technically not legal to run in tournaments? In that case, what do I do with my Autocannon Termie?
