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If a cyclops is inside a vehicle (now counts as infantry for embarking) and can be chosen to fire from within that vehicle (e.g. a stormlord)

Does it hit the stormlord or is the stormlord excluded because you measure from the stormlord and the cyclops rule tell you to target every other visible unit or does the stormlord count as a another visible unit to itself because while your measuring from it it is the cyclops explodeing?

Have they changed the Cyclops rule so it's an actual shooting attack rather than an ability?

Yes they completely reworked the models rules.

"The bearer can be selected to shoot with if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units and can make attacks with its Cyclops demolition charge when doing so. When this unit is selected to shoot with its Cyclops demolition charge, you must target and resolve attacks against every other visible unit within range (friendly and enemy), even if those units are within Engagement range of models from a unit from the opposing side. After this unit shoots with its Cyclops demolition charge, it is destroyed. In addition, this model cannot control objective markers or perform actions."

Cyclops Demolition Charge 6" Heavy 2D6 9 -2 D3 Blast

The mechanics of how it works are a bit wonky if put into a transport, but I'd say it would target the transport, as it's visible and within range.

In that case yes I agree it's a wonky situation, but I'm inclined to say no. The Stormlord rules state that transported units measure LoS from the Stormlord itself, and the Cyclops detonation affects any visible unit. You don't override the Stormlord's transport LoS rule.

Either way: pretty hilarious image to load a Stormlord with 6 Cyclopses and let those "shoot" outside. Not competetive at all, but in a weird way amusing.

The stormlord would be hit by the cyclops as well.

 p5freak wrote:
The stormlord would be hit by the cyclops as well.

Actually, according to the rules it wouldn't.

From the Core Rules - Measuring Distances

"Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you're measuring to and from. Note that it has both bases and models as plural, not singular. They don't define measuring a distance to yourself.

This is, of course, assuming that the Stormlord could draw line of sight to itself.

The line of sight rules from The Shooting Phase in the core rules "For the purposes of detemining visibility, a model can see through other models in its unit" There's be a question of it can choose to see through itself.

Granted, it should affect the Stormlord and that's how many people would play it.

TLDR - using abilities available during shooting phase != making shooting attacks

Open topped rule allows you to make shooting attacks as if it were on the battlefield, following all restrictions & permissions.

It does not, however, allow you to act out your actual shooting phase per se, as the only permission you are given is to make shooting attacks (as in, it does not grant you permission to use abilities that are used in shooting phase. It simply gives you permission to follow all rules that pertains to the shooting attacks.)Nevermind. demo charge is a shooting attack.

Yes doctors. that would make sense from a RAW perspective even if it is counter intuitive.

However from a RAI perspective I'm not sure their is a should in a situation like this, as I'm not sure the option was considered by the designers.

Its normal for GW to make new rules without thinking about interaction with existing rules. Its perfectly fine for a bomb to go off inside a vehicle, attacking units outside, and not damaging the vehicle at all, and circumventing the restriction that it cannot shoot the same turn when it disembarks

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes they completely reworked the models rules.

"The bearer can be selected to shoot with if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units and can make attacks with its Cyclops demolition charge when doing so. When this unit is selected to shoot with its Cyclops demolition charge, you must target and resolve attacks against every other visible unit within range (friendly and enemy), even if those units are within Engagement range of models from a unit from the opposing side. After this unit shoots with its Cyclops demolition charge, it is destroyed. In addition, this model cannot control objective markers or perform actions."

Cyclops Demolition Charge 6" Heavy 2D6 9 -2 D3 Blast

If this rules quote is accurate, the question becomes moot as it wouldn't be possible for the Cyclops to be in Engagement range whilst embarked.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes they completely reworked the models rules.

"The bearer can be selected to shoot with if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units and can make attacks with its Cyclops demolition charge when doing so. When this unit is selected to shoot with its Cyclops demolition charge, you must target and resolve attacks against every other visible unit within range (friendly and enemy), even if those units are within Engagement range of models from a unit from the opposing side. After this unit shoots with its Cyclops demolition charge, it is destroyed. In addition, this model cannot control objective markers or perform actions."

Cyclops Demolition Charge 6" Heavy 2D6 9 -2 D3 Blast

If this rules quote is accurate, the question becomes moot as it wouldn't be possible for the Cyclops to be in Engagement range whilst embarked.

Bingo.
If the Cyclops is in a vehicle it's not in Engagement Range as it doesn't exist on the tabletop.

It would also mean the Cyclops is absolutely useless, as in order to use it either;
1. You charge an enemy unit without getting killed in that fight phase, without them falling back, AND without them killing you in their fight phase as well.
or 2. The enemy charges you, without killing you in their fight phase.
So pretty ridiculous if the quote is accurate.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes they completely reworked the models rules.

"The bearer can be selected to shoot with if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units and can make attacks with its Cyclops demolition charge when doing so. When this unit is selected to shoot with its Cyclops demolition charge, you must target and resolve attacks against every other visible unit within range (friendly and enemy), even if those units are within Engagement range of models from a unit from the opposing side. After this unit shoots with its Cyclops demolition charge, it is destroyed. In addition, this model cannot control objective markers or perform actions."

Cyclops Demolition Charge 6" Heavy 2D6 9 -2 D3 Blast

If this rules quote is accurate, the question becomes moot as it wouldn't be possible for the Cyclops to be in Engagement range whilst embarked.

Bingo.
If the Cyclops is in a vehicle it's not in Engagement Range as it doesn't exist on the tabletop.

It would also mean the Cyclops is absolutely useless, as in order to use it either;
1. You charge an enemy unit without getting killed in that fight phase, without them falling back, AND without them killing you in their fight phase as well.
or 2. The enemy charges you, without killing you in their fight phase.
So pretty ridiculous if the quote is accurate.

I think it gives an additional way of allowing it to be selected to shoot, when in engagement range, while not removing the normal conditions. So I think it can go boom at other times.

 Uther wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Yes they completely reworked the models rules.

"The bearer can be selected to shoot with if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units and can make attacks with its Cyclops demolition charge when doing so. When this unit is selected to shoot with its Cyclops demolition charge, you must target and resolve attacks against every other visible unit within range (friendly and enemy), even if those units are within Engagement range of models from a unit from the opposing side. After this unit shoots with its Cyclops demolition charge, it is destroyed. In addition, this model cannot control objective markers or perform actions."

Cyclops Demolition Charge 6" Heavy 2D6 9 -2 D3 Blast

If this rules quote is accurate, the question becomes moot as it wouldn't be possible for the Cyclops to be in Engagement range whilst embarked.

Bingo.
If the Cyclops is in a vehicle it's not in Engagement Range as it doesn't exist on the tabletop.

It would also mean the Cyclops is absolutely useless, as in order to use it either;
1. You charge an enemy unit without getting killed in that fight phase, without them falling back, AND without them killing you in their fight phase as well.
or 2. The enemy charges you, without killing you in their fight phase.
So pretty ridiculous if the quote is accurate.

I think it gives an additional way of allowing it to be selected to shoot, when in engagement range, while not removing the normal conditions. So I think it can go boom at other times.

That's not the way it currently reads.
If it said "The bearer can be selected to shoot with even if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units..." or similar then I would agree with you.
But as it's currently written it appears that being in Engagement Range is a necessary restriction on firing it.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

That's not the way it currently reads.
If it said "The bearer can be selected to shoot with even if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units..." or similar then I would agree with you.
But as it's currently written it appears that being in Engagement Range is a necessary restriction on firing it.

It doesn't say "only" or give any other indication that it overrides or blocks any of the normal rules about selecting a unit in your army to shoot with. So all the normal rules still apply, and those normal rules give it the ability to "boom" when not in engagement range. It gives an almost pistol style override to the "Locked in combat" rule with differences due to it targeting multiple things.

I don't play AM, but it's how I've seen AM players say that it works and I agree with that reading of the rules.

 Uther wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:

That's not the way it currently reads.
If it said "The bearer can be selected to shoot with even if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units..." or similar then I would agree with you.
But as it's currently written it appears that being in Engagement Range is a necessary restriction on firing it.

It doesn't say "only" or give any other indication that it overrides or blocks any of the normal rules about selecting a unit in your army to shoot with. So all the normal rules still apply, and those normal rules give it the ability to "boom" when not in engagement range. It gives an almost pistol style override to the "Locked in combat" rule with differences due to it targeting multiple things.

I don't play AM, but it's how I've seen AM players say that it works and I agree with that reading of the rules.

Agreed. It can shoot normally, and within engagement range.

The first sentence is concluded with a full stop it is therefore a separate clause

The bearer can be selected to shoot with if it is within Engagement Range of any enemy units and can make attacks with its Cyclops demolition charge when doing so.

The second clause is
When this unit is selected to shoot with its Cyclops demolition charge, you must target and resolve attacks against every other visible unit within range (friendly and enemy), even if those units are within Engagement range of models from a unit from the opposing side.

Then

After this unit shoots with its Cyclops demolition charge, it is destroyed.

Then

In addition, this model cannot control objective markers or perform actions."

They are not contingent on each other and the cyclops always has the option to shoot normally as their is no rule that says it can't