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For example say they don't actively make a kit anymore. Let's just take the Thunderhawk Transporter for instance. And imagine that the community had a real strong desire to buy some. The only real way to get one in 40k scale right now is to either scratch build, browse ebay and other sites endlessly and hope you dont destroy it paint-stripping it, recast, or 3d print one. I don't imagine FW CAN'T make it anymore, just that they don't because apparent demand is low, but let's imagine the demand for it rises for whatever reason. What if GW / FW were willing to bring it back but under a different purchase format. Let's say they opt to do with a group-buy method.

For those who don't really know about the concept, I'm borrowing it from the custom mechanical keyboard hobby which frequently does this. In the mechanical keyboard hobby, we can obtain keycaps of any number of colors and whatnot, or keyboard cases, etc. because it is a significantly niche hobby, nothing is really readily available. Everything is custom made. for this sake, we will use just the keycaps part of the hobby. To help offset costs for development, color choices, and production, the theorized product line is opened to the public as a group-buy. kind of like preordering in a way. The group-buy will remain open for a set time. in most cases now, it is a limitless group-buy, meaning as many people that want to join in or buy as many examples of it are welcome to. these people are shown renders of what the set should look like and given the decision to join if they like it. Once the group-buy closes, let's imagine a set of keycaps has sold 2,290 sets. the original set designer will get in touch with GMK or Signature Plastics, or whoever else they chose to potentially run the group-buy through and complete the development and then produce the 2,290 sets (plus some extras in case of lost in shipping, damaged, or other manner of incomplete satisfaction). If all arrive to customers, they will sell of the extra sets as "extras." so those 2,290 sets + extras would be the only ones produced. If enough demand and interest was seen, they would run what would be called an "interest check." if it passes interest check, they would push it to a second round of group buys.

So obviously not all sets have enough customers immediately to meet minimum quotas, so provided enough sets get claimed, some retailers will opt to simply purchase whatever is the difference between sets ordered an minimum total orders just so they can have the group-buy go through and satisfy those who really wanted it. sooner or later other people joining the hobby will slowly take off those extra sets retailers bought. that's besides the point, but it shows that people can order as many examples as they want, just so long as the cost to manufacturer is paid for. Oftentimes, if minimum quota is met, the people running group buys will prompt more sales by offering lower costs if they reach an even higher quota.

Imagine if FW decided to take this to market. In this example, i decided to use the Thunderhawk Transporter as the guinea pig. Say we had people that wanted enough of them, and let's imagine FW ran an equivalent of an "interest check." and it passed, indicating that enough interest was there to do a run of Thunderhawk Transporters for people that want it. Let's say that minimum number was 400. They would then run a group-buy where people would pay lets say $800 per example of item. If the number gets close to 400, they might just say f-it, we'll make all 400 and just hold on to the extras and list them on the sight or raffle them off at events or whatever.

Let's imagine that the orders get to 450. at that point, the actual orders have exceeded the minimum required. Perhaps they may say that if actual orders get to 500, the costs of each example would drop to $700 instead of the original $800. obviously, the more units they have to make, the cheaper it gets, to an extent.

I wonder if that would be a possible option for FW / GW to do for people that want some older or OOP models that FW/GW had that they dont make anymore like their Mars Pattern Baneblades, or Lucius pattern warhounds, or indeed the thunderhawk transporter, or any number of other things they used to make.

Idk maybe this method may actually also be a good way for them to judge if any specific designs are worth bringing to life purely by public demand.

just a big what if scenario. Please let me know if I need to clarify anything or change a way of explanation for people.

GW do run "made to order" OOP stuff from time to time.
I think the most recent one was LOTR ents and chaos sorcerer before then?

But its not something they do often or as often as we would like sadly. I think it just not part of their business model of high volume high price big runs.
Im not sure exactly what the manufacturing process is. I work in very high volume high demand manufacturing so I imagine its similiar.

As long as they have the molds they can in theory make a run of anything.

But - having a mold is not enough. You have to set up a line, calibrate etc, ensure the staff are trained to use the machines and quality is good as well as be cost effective. What if the machine is old and it keeps breaking down? what if the molds are breaking down? do they keep sinking resource into it while they could just be making their fast moving SKU?

I would imagine currently they have it set up that all the manufacturing capacity is optimised for their forecast sales. Say churning out plastic fast moving SKUs like 40k primaris, AOS stuff warbands etc.

Essentially they would have to free up a disproportionate amount of manufacturing in order to set this up to the reward.

Lets assume on one line they are selling 1000x monthly units of SKU A coming out of a modern injection mold machine. So the machine is set up and calibrated to run that product (and other very similar products). This requires operators to load/ unload the machine and run it. it then requires engineers when the machine inevitably stops for whatever reason. Lets assume they have 10 of such lines(10 machines). Each machine could be slightly different and designed to run a specific type of product range.

How many people know how to operate the old machines? Do they even train new people to do this? If say they are running 10 lines to meet current demand, nobody will be able to justify halting production and pulling resource to run some old machine that's largely not used. There are also risks; It would effect brand if they end up with high defect rates or simply not be able to meet demand.

Again, this is best guess. I have no idea how their factory is actually run or what their processes involve. I see a a lot of failcast stuff is out of stock because I believe they are phasing it out.

My best guess is they do have some capacity set aside for low volume legacy product runs. But its the lowest priority. I have no idea how they can forecast something OOP reasonably.

Bottom line is. I think some people underestimate how complex manufacturing can be and how darn expensive it is.

FW is a funny one. I don't understand their operation at all.. they always cast resin, low quantity low demand stuff. Low valume manufacturing by its nature is a lot more flexible. So I dont really see why they cant do a lot more OOP stuff.. I wish I could get they OOP dragons.. should have gotten the magma dragon and carmine dragon when I had the chance.. ;(

I guess one way to gauge interest would be to send out a questionnaire poll in their mailing list to see what people would liek to see. But people wanting to see stuff made, and actually buying it are two very different things.. Somebody would need to work on that project and manage it. It would still it would require a significant amount of resources pulled which is already happily being utalised in making their mainline SKU so its just not viable IMO.

Yeah, some of it they literally can't. Moulds wear out or break, sometimes they're not even worth storing long term, machines are replaced.

Some stuff isn't worth it. Even if they could get guaranteed orders to meet some sort of quota, they'd need to bump other production to fulfill those orders. Something as big and esoteric as a thunderhawk transporter would eat a lot of production time for little comparative gain.

I don't get the fixation on thunderhawks... I know its along running meme at this point. But it seems im missing something.

They do already sell a thunder hawk gunship...

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Space-marines-thunderhawk-gunship-2017

SO if you really wanted one you could just get it.

What I truly miss is their bits selling website where you could just buy individual bits of all manner of stuff.

Want a dragon prince? No problem.
Want imriks lance by itself? No problem
Want a carnosaur body by itself ? No problem
Want to buy some dragon wings on their own? No problem
Want some random tyranid bits for spikes? No problem

"Adds glue & Greenstuff makes a dragon rider dude* No problem.

 Argive wrote:


What I truly miss is their bits selling website where you could just buy individual bits of all manner of stuff.

Want a dragon prince? No problem.
Want imriks lance by itself? No problem
Want a carnosaur body by itself ? No problem
Want to buy some dragon wings on their own? No problem
Want some random tyranid bits for spikes? No problem

"Adds glue & Greenstuff makes a dragon rider dude* No problem.

I think that Games Workshop's Bitz Order Service was a much more manageable and feasible operation 15 years ago, before Finecast even existed and their non-plastics range was still entirely white metal. Keep in mind that GW as a business has also been steadily growing each year; these days there are probably far too many customers worldwide to make a bits order service even remotely doable.

As for OP's original question, I've heard from secondhand sources that a lot of the molds that FW uses often make pieces for multiple kits, so a single mold may contain parts from 2-3 different kits in order to maximize production potential. Resin casting is also a lot more labor intensive than plastics.
That said, I'd love for them to do this, especially for a lot of kits like the Mk2 armor that's been OOP for a few years now. Give a longer production window in which people can order - say, two to three months - and at the end of that cutoff period, produce however many kits were ordered plus some extras.

Argive thanks for clarification on manufacturing processes!! I guess standard gw is kind of impossible. For FW i guess it depends on mold/master condition if they even have either around.

I know they have the gunship variant ready for sale and i believe the current one is version 2. They used to have a different transporter variant that was rare as hell cuz i guess most people weren't lookin for a transport thunderhawk to transport rhinos and land raiders. Seemed to be more of a display piece or diorama piece than it was useful.

Id kinda like to get one at some point but it's proving difficult to even find recently sold second hand examples. Ill probably end up scratching one up or something at some point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Grey wrote:

As for OP's original question, I've heard from secondhand sources that a lot of the molds that FW uses often make pieces for multiple kits, so a single mold may contain parts from 2-3 different kits in order to maximize production potential. Resin casting is also a lot more labor intensive than plastics.
That said, I'd love for them to do this, especially for a lot of kits like the Mk2 armor that's been OOP for a few years now. Give a longer production window in which people can order - say, two to three months - and at the end of that cutoff period, produce however many kits were ordered plus some extras.

ah that would make sense. Idk i guess if we really wanted to, we can turn this discussion into also a fermenting bin of kits they used to have that people would want to be part of limited re-runs of we can go through and gather enough votes to petition FW to see if they are willing to run it. with the custom keyboard parts, we always paid the full price upfront with the groupbuy. Then we'd wait the quoted 4-8 months of production period and QC before they shipped them out all at once. if FW is willing to deal with that, they would have the money up front to fulfill the bills needed to cover the production run, unless something goes disastrously wrong. The question would be if they are willing, would they have to make a new mold if they had a master copy that was still in good enough condition and how high the minimum production quantity would have be to make it worth their time, costs, and profit as well as match a price people are willing to pay. I don't now the cost of molds but I assume it's not cheap to make, at least not if you want to be able to run like a thousand copies of anything in any sort of good quality.

As for forge world's production line. I'm about as baffled as anyone. AFAIK they are making fewer variants of everything than they used to, at lest like tank sized things and larger. Ik their microparts and little chapter specific heads, shoulderpads, etc is skyrocketing in type and quantity. speaking of casting resin. Ik resin makes for great detail, but isn't ABS essentially cheaper/easier to make and nowadays almost equivalently detailed in many cases, at least for good sized companies? Or is it the different in the cost of ABS molds?

I think their "made to order" is probably the best route they have.

If they move on to a new kit or model, but keep the old, every so often they could do a community survey (they might already do this) to see what there is demand for and trot out the old molds to make a limited edition run, then put them away until there is cry for them again down the road.

Honestly I think the issue with FW is that its a political and resource issue within GW. I think its wrapped up with politics to the hilt. It would explain why they've stripped the AoS line of models - and you notice fast that what gets stripped is stuff that GW community pages has never or so rarely as to never, marketed.

Basically FW's inventory for AoS is unsold and not profiting as it should, but FW/GW isn't actually telling people about it. Go to the FB groups and there are AoS players who don't know about FW or who think its a side company GW bought or even just a 3rd party and not even connected properly with GW.

Models like the Magma dragon should have had no problem selling, yet they did because it was never marketed; it was thrust into Destruction (the black sheep of AoS at present) and basically ignored.




I do think that with Old World and the Specialist games, FW's team is understaffed to produce models for all the ranges they support, but it shouldn't be understaffed to produce actual models already in their inventory. So I'm geting a feeling that they are cutting models to cut costs from regions that aren't profiting, yet at the same time that lack of profit is directly connected to main GW studio not providing updated rules and not marketing the stuff.

I do notice that the Gloompsite models have survived both the last two major removals of models FW has done around Christmas; and they DID get a lot of marketing in WD and the community site. People saw and knew the Collossal Squig existed.


Heck back in the March lockdowns last year the FB community team did a short "what demon to buy" article that specifically called out exalted greater demons - and referenced and linked to the plastic kits; not the "actual" exalted models on the FW website.

 Argive wrote:
I don't get the fixation on thunderhawks... I know its along running meme at this point. But it seems im missing something.

They do already sell a thunder hawk gunship...

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Space-marines-thunderhawk-gunship-2017

SO if you really wanted one you could just get it.

That's the 2017 redo of the Thunderhawk Gunship (to make it look more like the Stormbird). NotSkilledHere was talking about the Thunderhawk Transporter (the Rhino dropship variant) -



Some people prefer the original FW version of the Gunship, and some sadists want the metal version...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've asked a few different people at GW about Kickstarters and the response has been the same - they have the cash reserves to do what they want and their own ways of measuring interest in things.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
I think that Games Workshop's Bitz Order Service was a much more manageable and feasible operation 15 years ago, before Finecast even existed and their non-plastics range was still entirely white metal.

I don't think it's entirely a managability issue, its a practicality issue, such that production methods and materials have changed.

Look at the old white metal multipart figures, how did they arrive? In a pack with individual parts, not as parts on a sprue.
This means that they used to be able to produce, lets say for examples sake, moulds that were just 1 part of the kit, instead of a mould that produced a sprue, that would need clipping out to sell parts.

So, if Marine Legs A are popular, it would have been much easier to produce say 10 sets of just legs, compared to 10 full sprues and remove the legs.

Also, as I've seen mentioned in other threads, white metal can be reused, melted down to make new parts, plastic and resin much less so.

While I did used to love the bitz order service, I agree that the company has grown too much to really make it a reliable service. It would be good however if particular sprues could be ordered individually.

I also agree that FW models would be very hard to release in a made-to-order fashion. It'd also be pretty difficult to judge the uptake; if GW released a MTO Captain for £20 then I may go for it on an impulse much more than a £300 MTO Thunderhawk for example.

I think I'm more annoyed with how FW's product range is just shifting towards 30k and Necromunda.

"Ok guys, we've decided that we'll be scrapping 3 Tau and 4 Chaos units to make production space for the fourth set of Blood Angel MKIII Deimos Rhino doors and the new Necromunda unit that no-one's heard of".

Additionally they've butchered most of the rules in the Imperial Armour Compendium and Legends. Even some unique rules that didn't affect competitiveness they've just scrapped for some bloody reason. That's what's annoyed me the most; anything unique about a unit or that adds just a little bit of character, they've either made generic and boring, or more likely, just scrapped it alltogether.

i'd buy a platoon of vraksian renegades in a hearbeat, IF they somehow also would deliever them with the cadian bodies require for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
While I did used to love the bitz order service, I agree that the company has grown too much to really make it a reliable service. It would be good however if particular sprues could be ordered individually.

I also agree that FW models would be very hard to release in a made-to-order fashion. It'd also be pretty difficult to judge the uptake; if GW released a MTO Captain for £20 then I may go for it on an impulse much more than a £300 MTO Thunderhawk for example.

I think I'm more annoyed with how FW's product range is just shifting towards 30k and Necromunda.

"Ok guys, we've decided that we'll be scrapping 3 Tau and 4 Chaos units to make production space for the fourth set of Blood Angel MKIII Deimos Rhino doors and the new Necromunda unit that no-one's heard of".

Additionally they've butchered most of the rules in the Imperial Armour Compendium and Legends. Even some unique rules that didn't affect competitiveness they've just scrapped for some bloody reason. That's what's annoyed me the most; anything unique about a unit or that adds just a little bit of character, they've either made generic and boring, or more likely, just scrapped it alltogether.

butchered is a friendly word...
it's an implicit "PLAY MARINES OR feth OFF" type of deal, was the same during 8th aswell ...

I imagine the Covid production crunch is why the GW MTO service seems to have fallen by the wayside a bit. GW can't keep up with the mainstream products without doing what were probably fairly small runs.

That said, I hope it comes back, and when it does becomes a bit less random? Like ask what people want them to do, and within reason do those first. And expand it to Forge World.

I'm still waiting for my Sargent Ripper made to order; they seem to come out sporadically .

 Valkyrie wrote:


I think I'm more annoyed with how FW's product range is just shifting towards 30k and Necromunda.

"Ok guys, we've decided that we'll be scrapping 3 Tau and 4 Chaos units to make production space for the fourth set of Blood Angel MKIII Deimos Rhino doors and the new Necromunda unit that no-one's heard of".

Except that I can tell you as a 30k player that it's really not(shifting towards 30k at least). Yes, we've gotten some new releases last year, as well as previews for one or two upcoming items - still no sign of the Word Bearers praetors previewed back in March(?) of 2020 - but even so it feels like releases for Horus Heresy are few and far between. FW also has a nasty habit of LCTBing or outright dropping pieces of the 30k line constantly. And that includes legion-specific vehicle doors for quite a few of the legions.

Going to soapbox here for a brief second and say this: if you're unhappy about something that Forge World is doing, email them. They don't see your complaints unless you tell them. Obviously there's no guarantee that they'll do anything about it, but if there are enough emails, maybe it'll raise a flag somewhere and make someone take notice. /steps off soapbox

As Overread said a bit earlier, some of it at least does seem to be this weird "political" divide between GW proper and FW. For whatever reason, Games Workshop despite making record profits the last couple years seems very reluctant to invest anything on the FW side of things. And that's with both Titanicus and Necromunda appearing to do very well as separate game systems.

Looking at GW today, their business model is centered almost exclusively around high volume production of low-variable-cost plastic kits, and has become far more Disney-esque in managing their IP.

FW was there to do stuff that couldn't be done in plastic or metal, or that just wasn't in the main design team's interest, but that could be done profitably in small scale in resin at a high individual cost and premium price. The FW department was also created when the business and market were very different things to what they are now. GW's current business model doesn't have the same place for this sort of thing, particularly as 3rd party outfits/3d printing/etc rapidly overtake the specialist niche that FW once addressed. The passing of Bligh I think was the end of FW as we knew it unfortunately.