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Has anyone considered, seen, or otherwise pontificated what it would look like to port the full range of Primaris marines back into an older edition?

Given my proclivity towards playing older editions, but not wanting to leave people with Primaris marines totally out of the actions, I was thinking about making a Primaris-only codex, maybe thematically the idea being that these are the early primaris attempts and not based on any of the more specific gene-seeds.

Anyone seen this before? Any thoughts on how to do it?

I'd just let them run as regular Marines, tbf. "Truescale" conversions existed in the Before Time, and Primaris are basically that with 30k helmets.

Helblasters become plasmagunners/plasma cannon devastators.

Inceptors can just be assault marines.

Incursors/Infiltrators/Eliminators can be differently-equipped Scout versions.

Eradicators become melta marines or multimelta devastators

etc.

I mean, that can work for some models/units, but it isn't as easy for others.

Suppressors are pretty distinct, as are the inceptors.

There are some models that have either better armor saves and/or higher toughness that wouldn't easily slot into a first born unit type without seeming odd or out of place. Thinking Aggressors, extra toughness on the hellblasters, etc.

Then there are all of the vehicles, that have fairly distinct weaponry, looks, options, etc.

I'm not saying you can't just count them as regular marines, but it seems like there could be a place for a custom codex "just" for primaris that don't let you mix and match with other non-primaris units.

I never thought it made sense that primaris would have twice as many wounds as regular marines, but it'd be pretty easy to slot them into an edition like 5th where multiwound infantry was much rarer.

Just give them the bonus attack and for the most part maintain the basic stat changes from there.

Gravy Armor grants +1T (actually matters quite a lot more in older ed's with Instant Death and such to worry about)

Their weapons for the most part can port right over

do what you can to replace their bespoke rules with universal rules (Reivers grappling hook gives Outflank, Grav Chutes give Deep Strike, Infiltrator Helix Adept gives 6+FNP etc) and again where you can just fold some of their Adjective Nounverb equipment in to standard wargear. No reason that primaris autocannons have to be Adjective Nounverby Autocannons, they can just be Autocannons, there's no other marine unit with autocannons and jump packs that Suppressors cant be.

I already do this, most units work as previous versions with additional weapon options, the vehicles I have made my own data sheets for

Yeah I mean you could do some conversions on the unique units if you really wanted (e.g. suppressors as Jet Pack Infantry with Autocannons).

I don't think "better saves" or "higher toughness" is a very good idea, nor do I think it's warranted. Like I said, Truescale marine armies existed in the Before Time, and Terminators were basically Aggressors (but the powerfist was on one hand and the twin bolter thing on the other hand).

You could make a pretty convincing argument that Aggressors are just Terminators - the storm bolter is represented by the two separate barrels, one on each arm, and the power fists are, shockingly, power fists. They get the extra attack from two fists rather than being Veterans .

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah I mean you could do some conversions on the unique units if you really wanted (e.g. suppressors as Jet Pack Infantry with Autocannons).

I don't think "better saves" or "higher toughness" is a very good idea, nor do I think it's warranted. Like I said, Truescale marine armies existed in the Before Time, and Terminators were basically Aggressors (but the powerfist was on one hand and the twin bolter thing on the other hand).

You could make a pretty convincing argument that Aggressors are just Terminators - the storm bolter is represented by the two separate barrels, one on each arm, and the power fists are, shockingly, power fists. They get the extra attack from two fists rather than being Veterans .

Gravy Armor doesn't give the 2+ 5++ though. it gives +1T, making you T5 3+, that's its thing that it does.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah I mean you could do some conversions on the unique units if you really wanted (e.g. suppressors as Jet Pack Infantry with Autocannons).

I don't think "better saves" or "higher toughness" is a very good idea, nor do I think it's warranted. Like I said, Truescale marine armies existed in the Before Time, and Terminators were basically Aggressors (but the powerfist was on one hand and the twin bolter thing on the other hand).

You could make a pretty convincing argument that Aggressors are just Terminators - the storm bolter is represented by the two separate barrels, one on each arm, and the power fists are, shockingly, power fists. They get the extra attack from two fists rather than being Veterans .

Gravy Armor doesn't give the 2+ 5++ though. it gives +1T, making you T5 3+, that's its thing that it does.

It also gives you an extra wound. I guess the question is - are you trying to backport them so people can use the models?

Or are you trying to backport the entire idea, lore and all?

If people just want to use the models, then Truescale Marines!

If people want the models, lore, etc. then you'll have to do much more work to port it over and then much MORE more work to balance it.

Is there a compelling lore reason why Gravis armor has higher T than regular power armor but Terminator armor has a better Sv?

If not, then I don't think the current mechanical implementation of Gravis is terribly important- it's heavier and bulkier than power armor, it seems reasonable to treat it like Terminator armor and give it the 2+. Port the models and fluff, not the rules.

FWIW, I think the appeal of doing this would be to port the fluff, the models, AND the rules.

I don't think the rules will be that onerous looking into it.

For weapons, it's easy enough to port the stats, with AP -1 becoming AP5, AP-2 AP4, and so on.

I think everything goes back to 1 wound, with the possible exception of the 3+ wound models getting 2.

A few model could get T5, which I do think makes them distinct and different from terminators - especially because of how Armor Penetration works in classic 40K.

I wonder about developing the point costs for stuff. Tactical squads at 18 pts vs. 14 pts in 7th edition. Maybe start with scaling down the points somewhat proportionately.

Well, remember, AP-1 is AP4 in the old system (bolters used to be AP5 but translated to AP -).

That's kinda what I mean by balance issues. Primaris have already damaged non-marine armies pretty badly in 40k 9th. Giving a regular unit AP4 guns at 30" range with rapid fire would be pretty devastating - not even Tau had that kind of firepower on their basic guys.

The AP changes aren't consistent IMHO, and you can't always do a direct translation.

Plasma weapons used to be AP2, and now have AP -3, which would still let a terminator get a save (on a 5+, incidentally the same as their invulnerable).

For weapons there is isn't an existing classic version, I've used AP -2 as AP4, and AP -1 as AP5.

For Primaris, most of their weapons would become AP5. Effectively using a standard bolter's S and AP, but with variations providing more range or assault fire modes instead of rapid fire. Stuff like stalker rifles or executors could get bumped up to AP4 (there really isn't much AP4 in the game).

 Mezmorki wrote:
The AP changes aren't consistent IMHO, and you can't always do a direct translation.

Plasma weapons used to be AP2, and now have AP -3, which would still let a terminator get a save (on a 5+, incidentally the same as their invulnerable).

For weapons there is isn't an existing classic version, I've used AP -2 as AP4, and AP -1 as AP5.

For Primaris, most of their weapons would become AP5. Effectively using a standard bolter's S and AP, but with variations providing more range or assault fire modes instead of rapid fire. Stuff like stalker rifles or executors could get bumped up to AP4 (there really isn't much AP4 in the game).

That might be your translation, but it's not GW's. Looking at the 8th edition indexes, it's pretty clearly:

AP -1 = AP4 (heavy bolters, autocannons, GK psycannons, krak grenades were all AP-1, and still are).
AP -2 = AP3 (Battlecannons, krak missiles were AP-2, and still are).
AP -3 = AP2 (Plasma guns, lascannons, starcannons, powerfists were AP-3 and still are)
AP -4 = AP1 (Meltaguns, bright lances, dark lances, multimeltas were AP -4 and still are)

If you're translating Primaris bolters over as just regular old bolters, and also giving them 1 wound, why not just use them as Truescale Marines? What else is the difference? You could just use the sterguard's special issue ammo from 5th and there's all the alternate fire modes you'd need. I mean heck, if you are only preserving the extra attack, Sternguard basically are identical to Primaris except for Battlefield Role.

 Mezmorki wrote:
Has anyone considered, seen, or otherwise pontificated what it would look like to port the full range of Primaris marines back into an older edition?

Given my proclivity towards playing older editions, but not wanting to leave people with Primaris marines totally out of the actions, I was thinking about making a Primaris-only codex, maybe thematically the idea being that these are the early primaris attempts and not based on any of the more specific gene-seeds.

Anyone seen this before? Any thoughts on how to do it?

Truescale Marines. /thread

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That might be your translation, but it's not GW's. Looking at the 8th edition indexes, it's pretty clearly:

AP -1 = AP4 (heavy bolters, autocannons, GK psycannons, krak grenades were all AP-1, and still are).
AP -2 = AP3 (Battlecannons, krak missiles were AP-2, and still are).
AP -3 = AP2 (Plasma guns, lascannons, starcannons, powerfists were AP-3 and still are)
AP -4 = AP1 (Meltaguns, bright lances, dark lances, multimeltas were AP -4 and still are)

The difference is that the older system also had AP5, which is effectively missing from the translation above.

I think for balancing reasons, what I'm suggesting is that most of the primaris bolter variants would get AP5, on par with standard bolters. Some others that are intended to get heavy rounds would get AP4 or AP3. It's not going to be a perfect translation, and there might need to be adjustments to the point cost depending on how it translates.

For example, take the Intercessor options...

Bolt Rifle: S4, AP5, Rapid Fire, 30" (longer range bolters)
Auto Bolt Rifle: S4, AP5, Assault 3, 24" (like a storm bolter but with an extra shot)
Stalker Bolt Rifle, S4, AP4, Heavy 1, 36" (even longer range, AP4, but heavy - for balance might make assault 1)

Heavy intercessors... These all have extra strength...

Bolt Rifle, Executor: S5, AP3, 42", Heavy 1 (even more longer range, bump these to AP3 for differentiation)
Heavy Bolter, Executor: S5, AP3, 42" Heavy 2 (less shots than standard heavy bolter, but more range + AP3)

Bolt Rifle, Heavy: S5, AP4, 36", Rapid Fire (extra range, S, and AP over the basic bolt rifle)
Heavy Bolter: S5, AP4, 36", Heavy 3 (old standard heavy)

Bolt Rifle, Hellstorm: S5, AP5, 30", Assault 3
Heavy Bolter, Hellstorm: S5, AP5, Heavy 4

 Mezmorki wrote:
Has anyone considered, seen, or otherwise pontificated what it would look like to port the full range of Primaris marines back into an older edition?

Cursed founding rules had +1 toughness for marines at 5pts per model. Start from sternguard/vanguard for kraken rounds, extra attacks, etc. Would get you a fair approximation of the starting point.

So your port back is basically to bring Truescale Marines (1 wound, 3+ save) but with a whole proliferation of bolt weapons?

Why not avoid the bloat of nonsense bolt weapons and just go with old bolters? You're risking pulling a GW, where you add ~10 new things for a faction that doesn't need them, and doing so on a scale that is arguably too granular for consideration. In a game with heavy tank companies, does the difference between a Boltgun, Boltrifle, Auto Bolt Rifle, and Stalker Bolt Rifle really need to exist?

Are you planning to offer the 30k gamut of lasweapons to guard? Laslocks/lascarbines/lasguns/mitrelocks?

I believe many primaris units can be used as just truescale marines. Others like gravis would be better as their own new ported units.

I tend to agree, and certainly the bolter weapon bloat is a bit silly.

I haven't through the approach completely, but I do want there to be something to distinquish Primaris from firstborn equivolent, mechanically on the table.

As we said earlier, some units are more distinct and could have have a different profile. For others, like intercessor, the only real difference I imagine is down to their weapons and how the squads are equipped.

I could see removing a good portion of the bolter variants interest of cleaning things up, but still have a couple of variants that make is different from a normal bolter.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah I mean you could do some conversions on the unique units if you really wanted (e.g. suppressors as Jet Pack Infantry with Autocannons).

I don't think "better saves" or "higher toughness" is a very good idea, nor do I think it's warranted. Like I said, Truescale marine armies existed in the Before Time, and Terminators were basically Aggressors (but the powerfist was on one hand and the twin bolter thing on the other hand).

You could make a pretty convincing argument that Aggressors are just Terminators - the storm bolter is represented by the two separate barrels, one on each arm, and the power fists are, shockingly, power fists. They get the extra attack from two fists rather than being Veterans .

Problem is primaris are custodian sized. Custodians are head taller to space marine. Ergo they aren't true scale first born marines. They are true scale 8 foot marines aka primaris marines. To be true scale you need to be head shorter than custodian. Primaris ain't that,.

Ok. If you want there to be a mechanical difference you can fabricate one at your leisure, being the game designer.

I just caution you about the same mistakes GW did, where "I want there to be a mechanical difference" infected every single thing about marines, and they went from one page of Ranged Weapons in 4th edition to ... well, loads. More than I can count. Because everything had to be mechanically distinct in myriad nearly-irrelevant ways.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ok. If you want there to be a mechanical difference you can fabricate one at your leisure, being the game designer.

I just caution you about the same mistakes GW did, where "I want there to be a mechanical difference" infected every single thing about marines, and they went from one page of Ranged Weapons in 4th edition to ... well, loads. More than I can count. Because everything had to be mechanically distinct in myriad nearly-irrelevant ways.

I'm about to make a strawman (look out!) - but why not have the standard weapon of every other faction be the same as a bolter? Why have gauss blasters or tau pulse rifles with different properties?

I said at the onset that the intent is to make a Primaris ONLY codex - and not to have the ability to take any non-Primaris stuff in the list. As it's own, completely distinct codex, I feel like having a different bolter profile used as the "standard" weapon, just like most other factions have a different standard rifle (eldar shuriken cats, tau pulse rifle, dark eldar splinter rifle, AM lasgun, etc...) would be consistent.

 Mezmorki wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Ok. If you want there to be a mechanical difference you can fabricate one at your leisure, being the game designer.

I just caution you about the same mistakes GW did, where "I want there to be a mechanical difference" infected every single thing about marines, and they went from one page of Ranged Weapons in 4th edition to ... well, loads. More than I can count. Because everything had to be mechanically distinct in myriad nearly-irrelevant ways.

I'm about to make a strawman (look out!) - but why not have the standard weapon of every other faction be the same as a bolter? Why have gauss blasters or tau pulse rifles with different properties?

I said at the onset that the intent is to make a Primaris ONLY codex - and not to have the ability to take any non-Primaris stuff in the list. As it's own, completely distinct codex, I feel like having a different bolter profile used as the "standard" weapon, just like most other factions have a different standard rifle (eldar shuriken cats, tau pulse rifle, dark eldar splinter rifle, AM lasgun, etc...) would be consistent.

Well, yes, but making a 2nd Marine faction that's just slightly different Marines is bloat too - especially if you have to make a Primaris codex for all the non-Codex:SM SMs as well like SW and DA and BA.

And you're right, why not make those the same? That's a fantastic question. Why not make Medusa Cannons and Bolters have the same profile?

You can condense or expand as you see fit, as the game designer. I gave you my reasons why I, personally, wouldn't expand Marines (or add another Marine faction to the 4 or so that already exist in 5th ed). But I can't tell you your own reasons why or why not lasguns/boltguns/shuriken guns should or shouldn't be different. If you think they should, make them different, if you think they shouldn't, make them the same.

And to be frank? Most weapons really just are bolters. Lasguns aren't, but shurikats are "bolters but with rending", and gauss flayers are "bolters but with auto-glance on a 6", and Ork shootas are "bolters but with assault", etc. You're just trying to cram "bolters but with 6" more range" and "bolters but with assault" into an already occupied design space, and from the outside looking in that seems silly. A shoota is more distinct from a regular boltgun than a bolt rifle or auto bolt rifle is.

so going to ressurect this ancient thread. i dont want to do "truescale" proxy, because this would also be used for primaris stl proxies out there

i'm not worried about weapons but just basic unit stats, figure out the points after play testing

so for 3rd edition, what do you guys reckon? would be low unit count

keeping it simple:
intercessors
primaris captain
aggressors
redmeptor dread

i keep thinking increasing wounds by 1 or just taking the custodes profile from 7th and the contemptor for the redemptor. but if i go custodes route i got to figure out aggressors

Please don't necro.