Switch Theme:

Grimdark Future?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Hey y'all, recently I got curious about OPR's Grimdark Future ruleset and tried it out with a friend of mine over TTS.

I used the "Soul Snatcher Cults" rules and my friend used the "Prime Brothers" rules. I'm curious how others have found the overall balance of GDF, because in general we were not impressed. We love the idea behind alternating activation, less bloated 40k, but the balancing seemed just ridiculously off. The "Prime Brothers" boast 3x the firepower of basic "Battle Brothers" and basically just strolled through the entire opposing army with ease, taking like 1/4 casualties and blowing everything off the board in 3 turns.

It wasn't a great first impression - basically it seemed just as coconuts as 9th ed 40k but even wilder due to the crazy amount of distinction between the rules for the Primaris vs Regular Marines, and how utterly sad the damage output coming out of the genestealer cult units was. Two squads absolutely loaded up with the best anti-elite weaponry available would pile out of a transport, take their shots and kill 1 primaris marine, whose squad would then fire back and take out a whole 5-man unit with damage to spare.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





I've never played with Prime Brothers specifically but looking at their stats they don't look too crazy? They can stack up double Regeneration but rending will take care of that. Not sure if Soul Snatcher Cults have access to much of that?

They also cost 270 points for a 5 man squad with double Regeneration which is extremely hefty.

Which Soul Snatcher Squad with which weapons were you using that were so ineffective?
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

GDF is good for what it is

in my optinion there are 2 problems with the system overall

the first one is the initial idea that all the rules fit on one page, which was for a time handled by changeg the font size and now we have basic and advanced rules

the other is to try to have an entry for each single unit in each single army in every different setting out there

which means there are too many units doing the same thing but need to be different, which is a problem because of the limited rules
(they basically copied the problems from 40k in those cases because of just copying army list instead which are the main problem in 40k, and not the basic rules)

yet the advantage is Alternate Activations and less ploat while you can just any other list you fell is right (and it kind of works better by using the Warpath themed army lists instead of the 40k ones or just leave the Primaris stuff behind)

TL/DR: as long as you want a 1:1 copy of the 40k army lists you will get the same problems no matter what you do with the basic rules

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/27 14:44:48


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Rihgu wrote:
I've never played with Prime Brothers specifically but looking at their stats they don't look too crazy? They can stack up double Regeneration but rending will take care of that. Not sure if Soul Snatcher Cults have access to much of that?

They also cost 270 points for a 5 man squad with double Regeneration which is extremely hefty.

Which Soul Snatcher Squad with which weapons were you using that were so ineffective?


There were a few interactions that seemed kind of off, honestly.

1) Prime ATV equipped with a heavy fusion rifle (200pts) targeting a Mining Truck (200pts) - one hit roll on a 3+, save on a 6+, Mining Truck is instantly destroyed and all occupants take a morale test, instant 100% points return for one shot.

2) Prime Brothers for 225pts are equipped with rifles that output 3 shots apiece, essentially allowing them to remove any of the Soul-Snatchers def5+ units from the board regardless of whether or not they're standing in cover. Typically this allowed for an approx. 50% points return every time they took a shooting action.

3) 5 Soul-Snatchers (200pts) charging 5 Prime Brothers (225pts) with their Piercing Claws with the Rending rule removed 2 casualties (slightly below average rolling according to the mathhamer, average is 2.55 and then the remaining 3 Prime Brothers swung back to return 2 casualties, which is exactly average rolling.

Given that the Prime Brothers have def2+, Fearless, Regeneration, AND rifles with 24" range that output 3 shots apiece, the Soul-Snatchers' higher speed and slightly better melee output did not appear to come in any way close to the massive offense and defense advantage enjoyed by the Brothers.

Basically, it played like a game of 40k 9th if you set up a marine army vs a GSC army but the GSC army was not allowed to use cult ambush at all, and just had to get hosed right off the table with no deep strike allowed. If anything, it was probably quite a bit more one-sided as the GSC lost the ability to fight out of their transports, their transports were much easier to destroy, and they lost rapid-fire on their weapons and only hit on 5s.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/27 16:04:18


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Part of that is Grimdark Future is a much more lethal game. The lethality most comes from having less wounds in general (up until fairly recently, Custodian Brothers didn't have the Tough rule, for example! They died in 1 failed Defense roll like all the other chumps!) and not having the "to wound" roll, so every hit forces a save. There's not the nice bell curve you find in say, 40k.

I was also surprised looking at their rules that nothing in Soul Snatcher Cults has Ambush, but I guess that would be stealing the army-shtick from Rift Demons. Scout, I think, can be a more powerful tool.

Soul Snatcher Cults look like they have a few pretty powerful spells, which coupled with their shooting you should be able to do a decent amount of damage per activation (you get to do both!). Mind controlling an ATV to shoot into a battle walker would be fun.

Out of curiosity, how many points did you play? Could you post the lists?

I suppose I should play a few test games with some proxy Prime Brothers and see for myself if it feels off. I mostly do Rift Demons and/or Havoc Brothers vs Knight Brothers and throwing a unit of Blood Warriors at a unit of Knight Destroyers and watching them melt is good fun.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Rihgu wrote:
Part of that is Grimdark Future is a much more lethal game. The lethality most comes from having less wounds in general (up until fairly recently, Custodian Brothers didn't have the Tough rule, for example! They died in 1 failed Defense roll like all the other chumps!) and not having the "to wound" roll, so every hit forces a save. There's not the nice bell curve you find in say, 40k.

I was also surprised looking at their rules that nothing in Soul Snatcher Cults has Ambush, but I guess that would be stealing the army-shtick from Rift Demons. Scout, I think, can be a more powerful tool.

Soul Snatcher Cults look like they have a few pretty powerful spells, which coupled with their shooting you should be able to do a decent amount of damage per activation (you get to do both!). Mind controlling an ATV to shoot into a battle walker would be fun.

Out of curiosity, how many points did you play? Could you post the lists?

I suppose I should play a few test games with some proxy Prime Brothers and see for myself if it feels off. I mostly do Rift Demons and/or Havoc Brothers vs Knight Brothers and throwing a unit of Blood Warriors at a unit of Knight Destroyers and watching them melt is good fun.


Aight, well if the level of lethality we were seeing (Approx. 50%-100% point returns for every combat activation) is the norm for GDF, I think that basically settles whether or not we're interested in the system at all.

It's like someone looked at 40k and said "You know, the problem here is just that sometimes I shoot a thing at a thing and it doesn't just instantly die. What if Meltas but they always did 6 damage even at max range - that'd really clear things up I think."

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Sounds like a game that emphesizes heavy use of terrain if the casualities are high.

I've been interested in this for a while, but most players locally only opt for the official rules.

My biggest gripe is that the lists are kind of a mess to read.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/27 21:11:35


 
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

GDF has been working very well for me for narrative, lower-points friendly gaming. I love the base ruleset. Alternate activation is so superior to regular 40k.

But I agree, firepower and several upgrades are not well costed, and army lists are kind of a pain to use. I also hate the damage and tough implementation, where everything is just a multiple of 3.

I am wondering if it is possible to just use 40k codexes and the GDF rules for a similar experience. I will try it out (solo as we are locked down again here).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/28 11:56:32


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Illumini wrote:
GDF has been working very well for me for narrative, lower-points friendly gaming. I love the base ruleset. Alternate activation is so superior to regular 40k.

But I agree, firepower and several upgrades are not well costed, and army lists are kind of a pain to use. I also hate the damage and tough implementation, where everything is just a multiple of 3.

I am wondering if it is possible to just use 40k codexes and the GDF rules for a similar experience. I will try it out (solo as we are locked down again here).


We've tried something fairly simple to convert 9th to alternating activation.

Basically, you go thru the normal phases of a 9th ed battle round, but rather than IGOUGO, both players alternate moving, then psychic-ing, then shooting, then charging, then fighting (and of course fighting just works as normal)

To speed things up, we also implemented a rule where if you activate a CHARACTER unit, then they can decide to rally the troops and you get to activate all units within 6" of that character (but no chaining if you use that character to activate another character, he doesn't then get to grab more dudes)

Took a bit longer than normal 40k, and theoretically you get 1/2 as many opportunities to melee, but melee is so deadly that we found it didn't actually matter, stuff tended to be almost always dead or close enough to dead after one round.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

I think some of the lists are definitely unbalanced. My solution is not to use those lists, sadly. I think the normal battle brothers are better balanced than the Primes, but I understand if your opponent has made a list of all primaris units that that is unsatisfying.

I do think there is a problem with some costing and interactions. For example, Ambush on a Slow unit means your unit can't really do anything at all when it arrives compared to a normal unit. I don't think that is adequately factored into the cost.

Basically, some lists are better balanced than others and some lists just exist to give options for every single 40K faction.

Edit: The games creator is pretty active and responds to feedback on Reddit and their own forums, so it's worth throwing your feedback his way. He does a lot of different versions of the lists trying to fix issues.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/02 11:50:00


   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The creator is particularly active on Discord from what I've seen.
The OPR forum less so, not much going on there.
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

They have a facebook group as well, but a bit fanatic user group who is not really ready to discuss balance in my experience.

   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block






I'm super stoked to give this a solid try. For years I've stayed away from 40k because I just cant stand the IGOUGO (I've watch 100s of batreps and they all feel like little more than a back and forth shootout, made only worse with 9th miniscule map sizes).

Oh, and not spending upwards of $200 on books (every couple years) is a nice touch.

the_scotsman wrote:
We've tried something fairly simple to convert 9th to alternating activation.Basically, you go thru the normal phases of a 9th ed battle round, but rather than IGOUGO, both players alternate moving, then psychic-ing, then shooting, then charging, then fighting (and of course fighting just works as normal)


Very interesting notion. Still need expensive books though so not something I'll be tryout myself right now but I was thinking that GF could be made even better with a similar tweak (alternate moves, then alternate shots, etc...basically what BattleTech's turn progression is).
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







Grimdark Future is a way to get the same gameplay experience as 40k without having to buy the billion rulebooks - albeit it still assumes you know all the normal GW gaming conventions - and in probably 1/4 the time.

You will still spend 90% of that time counting buckets of dice and arguing about weird rules interactions and getting curbstomped by someone accidentally spamming obviously broken units that were statted and pointed by someone who never played the game, just as in real 40k.

The Patreon is a steal for how many 3d printable models you get tho.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/26 15:55:11


Posters on ignore list: 34

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in us
Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot




United States

I started playing Grimdark Future a few months ago and I never want to go back.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Lord Blackfang: Yeah, I think that is kinda what they are going for. A stripped down, fast playing version of 40K.

   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







And that's great, 3 games of Grimdark Future are cetainly time better spent than 1 game of 40k if you want to push gorgeous GW armies around and throw dice at each other

It's just not the holy grail of balanced and tactically involving gameplay people want it to be.

Perhaps its biggest contribution to gaming is the small chance it can draw "GW is the hobby" type players out of their cocoons, hold them by the hand and whisper to them that house ruling is okay.

Posters on ignore list: 34

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Yup, very much agree. It is also good for getting non-gamers into playing because it is so easy.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

The skirmish versions of Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy are great fun, too. They have some additional rules for campaigns, and it's great because they both use the main rules from the army-scale games.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Hello, are there lists for Thunder Warriors and Techno Barbarians and post apocolyptic soldiers? Cheers!!
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





The Rebel Guerillas faction will probably fit the post-apocalyptic soldiers faction well. Or any of the "human" factions (feudal guard, human defense forces, soul-snatcher cults, machine cults, etc)

Thunder warriors/techno-barbarians could be represented with Battle Brothers lists.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





That's awesome, I cant wait to start battling during the Unification Wars.
   
Made in us
Freaky Flayed One




Wilton, CT

This looks like a whole lot of fun
Rules - free.
2d standup armies - free
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

It is a really great game for casual gaming. Really feels like 40k, but much better basic ruleset.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Myrtle Creek, OR

Another thing is that the lists and even the core rules are updated fairly often based on fan feedback and model introduction. Newer stuff is going to likely be best guess and will probably be updated as more folks comment on the power levels.
   
Made in us
Hacking Interventor





Only tried the system recently - but I will express my enthusiasm for it! My SO and I had a fantastic game of Orc Marauders vs. Machine Cults that ended in a draw so narrow that it stood on the precipice of 5 different rolls.

We're gonna have to test more lists to see how balanced they are, but full alternating activation makes decisions both interesting and clear. It's not a total masterpiece of tactical depth, but neither is 40K, and this feels so much less bloated and gotcha-laden that I think we're gonna have a lot more fun with it.

"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"

-Tex Talks Battletech on GW 
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

The point calculator is also a great selling point. You can easily fill any holes in the lists, and have them pointed up as the rest. There are some obvious things that could make it more balanced, but overall, it works very well.

I have several battle reports on my blog. All the games I have played have been really interesting, with plenty of cinematic moments. Alternating activation is a great mechanic compared to 40k

https://mandollies.com/2021/05/07/battle-for-vogen-relief-column/

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Sledgehammer wrote:
Sounds like a game that emphasizes heavy use of terrain if the casualties are high.

I've been interested in this for a while, but most players locally only opt for the official rules.

My biggest gripe is that the lists are kind of a mess to read.


Just put the lists into BattleScribe and that solved that problem. We have yet to play a game, but honestly, looks like a beer and pretzels game that will be quite lethal, and where you need to use tactics.

The factions we play have things that are mostly gone from 40K, or will be gone in a couple of editions. So we are good. (Can you say buggies?) And since we avoid the local gaming scene like a plague and we have a nice gaming table...we can try these for fairly cheap. We are ready to move from GW games, all of them...but I want to use my toys.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Rihgu wrote:
I've never played with Prime Brothers specifically but looking at their stats they don't look too crazy? They can stack up double Regeneration but rending will take care of that. Not sure if Soul Snatcher Cults have access to much of that?

They also cost 270 points for a 5 man squad with double Regeneration which is extremely hefty.

Which Soul Snatcher Squad with which weapons were you using that were so ineffective?


I just tested the rules with very small armies of guerrillas and battle brothers. It came literally to one point, so my guess is that maybe there is a problem with some armies, partly because that is what happens with GW.

Also, contact the dev at Redditt. They do try to balance things out from what I understand

And gratuitous opportunity to show some real old marines. [img]
[Thumb - E35B83DE-3E6D-40BA-B803-147996EA2C7B_1_105_c.jpeg]

   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

The more I play this game, the more I like it. So nice to be free of bloat. Almost all our games in the past 2 years locally have been GDF

DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0

QM Templates here, best army builder app on the market, IMO
My Babylon 5 CCG blog
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners 
   
 
Forum Index » Other Sci-Fi Miniatures Games
Go to: