So my SW are to good. Need to play something else.

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**Niiai**

Played my local Ork opponent. My usual playing mate, at least in these Corona times.

I redid my old SW. Washed, painted them etc. Played my opponent orks. I just flattened him easaly twice. Same list I have played twice now. I build it around Terminators. The rest of the list seemed pretty fluffy. But stacking Wrath of the First, Keen Senses and Re rolls from Bjorn is just to strong.

Have I maxed my list? Or are SW just to good? I think I will be going back to my nids and GSC for the sake of fun, fairness, and probability of future games.

I included my list in case I am doing something wrong.

Spoiler:

**Blackie**

It's actually down to both lists, not just yours. Orks can definitely beat your list, which is definitely good but not too nasty, or have a fair match at the very least. What does your opponent run? What could he add?

**Sotahullu**

Blackie wrote:
It's actually down to both lists, not just yours. Orks can definitely beat your list, which is definitely good but not too nasty, or have a fair match at the very least. What does your opponent run? What could he add?

Yeah, I think the same. I don't think its anything that no one can handle.

**Niiai**

From memory.

Biggest boss warboss with claw relic.
Weardboy upgraded.

30 boys with claw. Skarsboys
30 boys with claw.
10 boys with claw.
10 grots.

Morkanaught. Sparkly bits.
Death rollar T8 (or bone breaker. Unsure about the Ork name)

10 flashgitz
1 truck
2 burnabombars.

I got first turn took down the Morkanaught with shooting and castled up.

He shot down 5 intersessors. Drove the airplanes up, bombed some Terminators. Charged my thunder wolf's with jumped boys. Did not kill 1 thunder wolf.

My turn shot down both planes. Killed the truck with the flahsgits. Thinned some remaining units. I finished up the jumped boys.

I have lost 5 intersessors and 3 Terminators. He has lost: Morkanaught, 2 burnabombers, 30 boys, 9 grots, 1 truck, 2 flahsgits. That is the end of my turn 2, and I went first.

The point difference at that point is staggering. It is also apparent he does not have the tools to deal with Terminators or thunder wolves.

-

The terminator castle that can shoot deepstriking units (stratagem). Get to hit on 2 (fury of the first) ignore modefiers (keen senses) re-roll 1 to hit (bjørn). Is very strong offensively. The redeptor dread is there as well and is also strong. And my psyker has storm caller to make them count as cover.

I also used the tempest stratagem to make them - 1 to hit. And I could further have boosted them with wisdom of the ancients.

Garanteed hits on a lot of S8 high AP weapons is just very powerful.

**ryzouken**

Well, one of the burnabomma planes ought've flyin eadbutted you on his turn 1, dumping a pile of mortal wounds on a bunch of your stuff, prioritizing your terminators and TWC, for starters.

That he prioritized your intercessors over the actually dangerous stuff is... Curious.

I'm not terribly keen on his list. I know folks love the big blobs of boys getting da jumped around, but I'm not sold on it. I'm less sold on the morkanaut/gorkanaut, and have no use for flash gitz outside of freebooters. Planes are fine, psyker is okay, warboss is better off on a bike, bone breaker battlewagon is cool. The rest is just... Meh. No buggies? No mek gunz?

Seems like he brought a pretty mediocre list and played it poorly.

**Niiai**

Your assesments of Boys might be right, but I do think they are good. I have been playing warhammer on and off for a long time. I have a nid and GSC army as well. Boys do very well vs them. Especialy when you are the speed freak clans for that 8 ich charge. Boys are like a missile with da jump and very consistent. But vs 2+ saves they do not do much.

He did bomb the terminators with both airplanes for mortal wounds. I think he killed 2 with the bombing runs. Terminators are 3 wounds a piece, so not very effective. Doing a flying headbut would kill one more terminator and wounding other things. Not really teeming the tide of returning shots.

When his turn 1 started he only had the flashgits as ranged weapons. The thunder wolves where behind line of sight blocking cover and they could not be seen by the flashgits.

The flashgits could target the terminators. But they where 2+ with +2 to their armour save and -1 to hit. The entier castle near the psyker was counting as beeing in cover and -1 to hit. I do not think flashgits should be shooting at terminators of they stil save on a 2+, although at that point there where really no good targets to shoot at.

Also what you are basicly describing is that all the models my oponents own outside of the psyker and planes are bad models. But I guess that comes with the warhammer territory.

**addnid**

That ork list is nice but not optimised at all. Flash gitz are great models (I love what I did with the 20+ I hav, took me forever) but they are completetly inefficient for their cost.
Burnas are not great for their cost (15 points less than a megadredd !!!), though on targets sensitive to MWs they can be quite good ("situational" to use the frontline gaming grading terminology). Nor is the deathrolla BB, nor is the morkanaut.
There are either too many boyz, or not enough of them. You need like 10, 20 or 30 (if trukkboyz for example), or then go straight to 110-120 or more. I think all ork players will agree on that.

I think you get the jist... It is a very nice list, but take it to any remotely serious tournament and you will experience Pain with a capital "P". Your SW list is not the issue here (though it seems quite good, and in any case is far more efficient that the ork list).

**Niiai**

Look all I know is we played for a long time and it was not uch for for either of us. Having units that obliterate the opponent while not taking damage back felt like codex creep.

Things like this feel bad. I spend time collecting and painting models. He did the same. And now never must they meet. Because we do not enjoy it and we play to have fun. So back to GSC or nids for me I suppose.

**Blackie**

Niiai wrote:
Your assesments of Boys might be right, but I do think they are good. I have been playing warhammer on and off for a long time. I have a nid and GSC army as well. Boys do very well vs them. Especialy when you are the speed freak clans for that 8 ich charge. Boys are like a missile with da jump and very consistent. But vs 2+ saves they do not do much.

He did bomb the terminators with both airplanes for mortal wounds. I think he killed 2 with the bombing runs. Terminators are 3 wounds a piece, so not very effective. Doing a flying headbut would kill one more terminator and wounding other things. Not really teeming the tide of returning shots.

When his turn 1 started he only had the flashgits as ranged weapons. The thunder wolves where behind line of sight blocking cover and they could not be seen by the flashgits.

The flashgits could target the terminators. But they where 2+ with +2 to their armour save and -1 to hit. The entier castle near the psyker was counting as beeing in cover and -1 to hit. I do not think flashgits should be shooting at terminators of they stil save on a 2+, although at that point there where really no good targets to shoot at.

Also what you are basicly describing is that all the models my oponents own outside of the psyker and planes are bad models. But I guess that comes with the warhammer territory.

Well boyz are good if there are 90 of them, Ghazghkull, KFF protection, 3 CPs invested in the Skarboyz stratagem and possibly a dok for the 6+++. If you don't play the whole lot boyz suck. And then their best option is to field 1-3 small units in trukks/bonebreakas/battlewagons in lists with TONS of vehicles. Your opponent fielded something that is between and boyz are almost dead weight this way.

This in addition to flash gitz which are utterly overpriced and the planes which are good but not played properly: they should be played only for a kamikaze role (3 mortal wounds against ANY unit within 6''). Morka is good for Bad Moons or Deathskullz, with Goffs only makes sense if there's also the FW big mek with it. A deep striking Gorkanaut could be a decent option for Goffs instead.

If that's all your opponent has then I'd suggest him playing 1000 points games, or very casual ones. In 2000 points games against semi competitive lists orks should go either full green tides or full vehicles, eventually joined by a few multiple small units. Choosing a mix between both archetypes means ending up with one of the worst factions in the game. I'd also suggest to focus on maximizing the VPs rather than going to the killing route: orks are very good in scoring points and winning the game with just a few dudes standing at the end of the battle.

I play both SW and orks and those armies could definitely be on par. Orks have always been "hard" to play for those who don't own large armies because they never worked with casual lists, they've always needed to be optimized and to be re-shaped (sometimes even completely) from edition to edition.

**addnid**

Niiai wrote:
Look all I know is we played for a long time and it was not uch for for either of us. Having units that obliterate the opponent while not taking damage back felt like codex creep.

Things like this feel bad. I spend time collecting and painting models. He did the same. And now never must they meet. Because we do not enjoy it and we play to have fun. So back to GSC or nids for me I suppose.

I know the bad feeling, I crushed an eldar army saturday with my bad moon triple kill tank list so badly I felt pretty bad too. This thing happens a lot in 40k, and has been a constant throughout all the editions.

If he insists on playing this list, then yes, go for GSC (which are "40k hardcore mode" ATM) or nids (you can even go triple kraken dimachaeron on him if you have finished converting yours -you told me in another thread you were on to that- because I think his list can actually deal with triple dima).

Are you a tough xenos player, or a lazy, EZ mode imperial player ?!! (Of course I am joking, many imperial armies are not easy to win with, and SW is certainly not among the strongest codexes around)

**the_scotsman**

the main problem I'm seeing in the matchup you've presented here is that boyz drop off in effectiveness very rapidly against specifically T5, and against 3+ and 2+sv units. If he'd had a large unit of say Corkskrew Skrapjets then the Rokkits would have been perfectly ideal at killing Terminators, but he didn't have rokkits, he had boyz who are just about the worst things to fight terminators that you can have.

Just because two armies in particular are a bad machup does not mean one army is always OP or the other always UP. You're going to get a lot of responses I would predict saying "Orks have plenty of answers to this!" but the thing is, Orks might, your pal's Orks on the other hand, I dunno.

You could try taking GSC/nids, it'd probably be a better matchup. Particularly if your opponent doesn't have many ways to switch his list up.

**Niiai**

No, I have not started converting dimas yet. Only assembeled parts. I have been bissy elsewhere. It is a bad idea to have to many projects in the wind.

Yeah I probably should try other armies if orks are weak to good saves. The other matches certanly have been more enjoyable to play, for the both of us.

**Dukeofstuff**

I think the biggest problem is the well nigh unkillable terminator blob. Mortal wounds? It doesn't much care they are 3W each. Incoming fire from ap- weapons? Your enemy can't do gak. Charges? He never gets close enough to charge without da jump, and auspex scan is almost enough to wipe a 30 boy blob anyway.

So yeah, its the big problem, especially cause its a BIG blob so the cp you spend on it are going to be spent at maximal efficiency. Lose the termies.