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Hey Dakka,

I am a bit confused about which bonusses I would lose in the following scenario:

I have a Patrol Detachment with Adrax Agatone. Now I also want to take Vulkan He'Stan but they are both Captains and I can't upgrade one of them to be a Chapter Master because they are named characters. So I decide to put Vulkan He'Stan in an Auxiliary Support Detachment for -2CP. Which rules would he (and my army in general) lose?

Both of my detachments still have the Salamanders key word. So I assume I can still use Salamanders specific Stratagems? Can I just not target Vulkan with them?

Vulkan's Aura Abilities would still affect my other Salamanders units from the Patrol Detachment correct?

Would he essentially only lose the Promethean Cult abillity? Would the rest of my army still benefit from the Promethean Cult abillity as normal?

Does Vulkan still get the Chapter Tactic for being a Salamander?

 M0ff3l wrote:
Both of my detachments still have the Salamanders key word. So I assume I can still use Salamanders specific Stratagems? Can I just not target Vulkan with them?

You unlock the Stratagems for Codex: Space Marines and Codex Supplement: Salamanders by having a Patrol of SALAMANDERS. You can use any stratagem you unlock on any unit in the army with the correct keywords, regardless of what detachment they are in. The ASD itself won't unlock anything, but it's a moot point since the Patrol does.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Vulkan's Aura Abilities would still affect my other Salamanders units from the Patrol Detachment correct?

Auras affect any units that have the correct keywords, regardless of what detachments they are in. Vulkan's auras will affect any unit with the SALAMANDERS keyword in range.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Would he essentially only lose the Promethean Cult abillity? Would the rest of my army still benefit from the Promethean Cult abillity as normal?

Promethean Cult applies to every unit in the army if "every unit from your army is a SALAMANDERS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Salamanders successor Chapter", thus assuming this check is true, Vulkan will still benefit from Promethean Cult and Combat Doctrines (because these are not "Detachment Abilities"). Keep in mind, afaik while you don't lose Combat Doctrines anymore for taking an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM (e.g an Assassin or Inquisitor), you do lose the "Superdoctrine" (i.e. Promethean Cult) if you do so.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Does Vulkan still get the Chapter Tactic for being a Salamander?

He does not. As per page 246 of the BRB, "Units in Auxiliary Support Detachments, Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments and Fortification Network Detachments never gain any Detachment abilities, even if every unit in that Detachment is from the Faction specified." Thus he'll have Combat Doctrines and Promethean Cult (since the army qualifies for both) but will forget he is a Salamander for whatever reason and no longer brings his blinged out wargear, as the "Forged in Battle" Salamanders Chapter Tactic is a "Detachment Ability".

Thanks for the quick response, I'm somehow more confused now...

Does Vulkan still have the Salamanders Key Word at that point? Can I even take him in a detachment that is not "SALAMANDERS"?

Or is he a SALAMANDERS unit but just doesn't have the chapter tactic?

Does he also lose his built in relics?

His keywords do not change. The weapons on his data sheet do not change. He is still valid to be included in a Salamanders army (or, indeed, any ADEPTUS ASTARTES army).

He just doesn't get to use the Salamander's detachment ability (Forged in Battle) when he is in an auxilary support detachment. The patrol detachment can use it as normal.

 Bilge Rat wrote:
His keywords do not change. The weapons on his data sheet do not change. He is still valid to be included in a Salamanders army (or, indeed, any ADEPTUS ASTARTES army).

He just doesn't get to use the Salamander's detachment ability (Forged in Battle) when he is in an auxilary support detachment. The patrol detachment can use it as normal.

Clear, thanks for the help guys!

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Both of my detachments still have the Salamanders key word. So I assume I can still use Salamanders specific Stratagems? Can I just not target Vulkan with them?

You unlock the Stratagems for Codex: Space Marines and Codex Supplement: Salamanders by having a Patrol of SALAMANDERS. You can use any stratagem you unlock on any unit in the army with the correct keywords, regardless of what detachment they are in. The ASD itself won't unlock anything, but it's a moot point since the Patrol does.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Vulkan's Aura Abilities would still affect my other Salamanders units from the Patrol Detachment correct?

Auras affect any units that have the correct keywords, regardless of what detachments they are in. Vulkan's auras will affect any unit with the SALAMANDERS keyword in range.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Would he essentially only lose the Promethean Cult abillity? Would the rest of my army still benefit from the Promethean Cult abillity as normal?

Promethean Cult applies to every unit in the army if "every unit from your army is a SALAMANDERS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Salamanders successor Chapter", thus assuming this check is true, Vulkan will still benefit from Promethean Cult and Combat Doctrines (because these are not "Detachment Abilities"). Keep in mind, afaik while you don't lose Combat Doctrines anymore for taking an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM (e.g an Assassin or Inquisitor), you do lose the "Superdoctrine" (i.e. Promethean Cult) if you do so.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Does Vulkan still get the Chapter Tactic for being a Salamander?

He does not. As per page 246 of the BRB, "Units in Auxiliary Support Detachments, Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachments and Fortification Network Detachments never gain any Detachment abilities, even if every unit in that Detachment is from the Faction specified." Thus he'll have Combat Doctrines and Promethean Cult (since the army qualifies for both) but will forget he is a Salamander for whatever reason and no longer brings his blinged out wargear, as the "Forged in Battle" Salamanders Chapter Tactic is a "Detachment Ability".

You are incorrect in your super doctrines answer [pariah pp35]

"The inclusion of an agent of the imperium does not prevent other units from their detachment from benefitting from detachment abilities"

Promethean cult is a detatchment ability. So you could include an agent of the inquisition without losing it.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Thanks for the quick response, I'm somehow more confused now...

Does Vulkan still have the Salamanders Key Word at that point? Can I even take him in a detachment that is not "SALAMANDERS"?

Or is he a SALAMANDERS unit but just doesn't have the chapter tactic?

Does he also lose his built in relics?

He has the SALAMANDERS keyword on his datasheet, so he'll always have the keyword. The ASD is a SALAMANDERS detachment, it just can't unlock stratagems or get a Detachment Ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
You are incorrect in your super doctrines answer [pariah pp35]

"The inclusion of an agent of the imperium does not prevent other units from their detachment from benefitting from detachment abilities"

Promethean cult is a detatchment ability. So you could include an agent of the inquisition without losing it.

Promethean Cult is not a Detachment Ability, it doesn't apply to a detachment, it applies to the entire Army. See the wording of the new Combat Doctrines vs Promethean Cult. This is why in a solely SALAMANDERS army, Vulkan keeps Promethean Cult and Combat Doctrines even in an ASD but loses Forged in Battle

Page 93 of the SM Codex explicitly states that Chapter Tactics are Detachment Abilities.

Codex: Space Marines (9th Edition), Page 125 wrote:If every unit from your army has the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED units), this unit gains a bonus (see below) depending on which combat doctrine is active for your army, as follows:

No mention of Detachments at all.

Codex Supplement: Salamanders, Page 56 wrote:If your army is Battle-forged, then in addition to the Detachment abilities gained from Codex: Space Marines, units in your army with the Combat Doctrines ability (see Codex: Space Marines) gain the Promethean Cult ability so long as, with the exception of UNALIGNED units, every unit from your army is a SALAMANDERS unit or every unit from your army is from the same Salamanders successor Chapter (see below).

Promethean Cult has no exception for AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM units, only UNALIGNED units.

Both Combat Doctrines and Promethean Cult have the same rule wording structure "If your army is X (except for Y), then Z". Combat Doctrines has Y be "AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED", while Promethean Cult has Y be "UNALIGNED". Should the Superdoctrines be errata'd to match the new Combat Doctrines wording (as they match the old wording) or is this actually intended to make taking Assassins still somewhat of a punishment for Marine armies? Who can say, as of now it's not been errata'd so it is what it is. See below.

The exemption is in the pariah supplement on page 35 in the agents of the imperium rules.

Whether or not promethean cult is a detatchment ability or an army ability it is equally exempted by the second part of that rule

"The inclusion of an agent of the imperium unit does not prevent other units from their detachment benefitting from detachment abilities"

" and it does not prevent other units from your army from benefitting from abilities that require every model in your army to have the ability"

They provide specific examples of this citing combat doctrines

The quotes from codex SM and Salamander are irrelevant the exemption is in pariah/spider not in the salamanders/sm rulebooks

So currently you do not lose super doctrines thats how it works. The inquisition rules grant you an exemption for a solo inquisitor.

U02dah4 wrote:
The exemption is in the pariah supplement on page 35 in the agents of the imperium rules.

Whether or not promethean cult is a detatchment ability or an army ability it is equally exempted by the second part of that rule

"The inclusion of an agent of the imperium unit does not prevent other units from their detachment benefitting from detachment abilities"

" and it does not prevent other units from your army from benefitting from abilities that require every model in your army to have the ability"

They provide specific examples of this citing combat doctrines

The quotes from codex SM and Salamander are irrelevant the exemption is in pariah/spider not in the salamanders/sm rulebooks

Fair enough, I don't have the Pariah book and was unware of the exact rules quote there. My apologises for the confusion due to incomplete information. Promethean Cult will indeed still apply.

So to be 100% clear. The only thing you lose if you have a Salamander Patrol and put Vulkan in an ASD (which is also a Salamander Detachment) is that Vulkan does not benefit from the Salamanders Chapter Tactic. He benefits from every other rule that the units in the Salamander Patrol do.

My advice: Find a second Salamander Troop unit so that you can have two Salamander Patrols, one with Vulkan and one with Adrax.