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Hello, I am building my first army and was wondering if I could get some help/tips. I really appreciate your help and time.
New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [114 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts]
Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adeptus Astartes - Iron Hands)
Configuration
**Chapter Selection**
Selections: Iron Hands
Battle Size
Selections: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Detachment Command Cost
Gametype
Selections: Matched
Stratagems
Relics of the Chapter
Selections: Number of Extra Relics
No Force Org Slot
5 Company Veteran Lightning Claw, Storm shield
Techmarine
Selections: Boltgun, Chapter Command: Master of the Forge, Omnissian power axe, Servo-arm, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, The Ironstone, Warden of the Ancients
Ironclad Dreadnought
Selections: Heavy flamer, Hunter-killer missile, Ironclad Assault Launchers, Seismic hammer, Stratagem: Hero of the Chapter, Stratagem: March of the Ancients, Student of History
Dreadnought combat weapon w/Heavy Flamer
Elites
6 Acolytes with bolt pistols and meltaguns
6 Acolytes with bolt pistols and meltaguns
3 Acolytes with bolt pistols and meltaguns
3 Jokaero Weaponsmith
Here are my thoughts and plans for the army. I will start with the plan for the Inquisition. I got the idea from the good people at goonhammer, I can't post a link on my first post but if you search goonhammer it is the November 16, 2019 article on Inquisition. In the article they talk about how to use a drop pod and an inquisitors "Psychic Veil" to shield them. My plan is to use the Stormraven Gunship to carry 12 Acolytes and an ironclad dreadnought up the field and then next to where they all pile out I will use the drop pod (3 Jokaero, captain, lieutenant, tech marine. inquisitor and 3 acolytes) to place them next to the other acolytes. With the Stormraven in front, followed by the drop pod, 3 Jokaero and the ironclad dreadnought they will hopefully keep the acolytes shielded with psychic veil for a bit.I don't think this makeshift "shield" will last very long but hopefully with all the meltaguns I can get some damage in. I use the tech marine to buff the Stormraven to help it live a bit longer with the ironstone. I picked iron hands because I love the look of the old dreadnoughts (that's why I don't have any of the newer dreadnoughts in the list) and because I like that iron hands has improved durability.
Other thoughts
I like the infiltrators ability to stop deep strike. I'd like to fit in more but didn't have the points.
I want to make sure this list isn't breaking any rules.
I would like it to be semi-competitive, like I could play it against strong armies and at least have a chance.
I'd like to know if there are better weapon/gear choices.
I have thought about running Eisenhorn for the 2 psychic abilities but cut him for points for now.
I really prefer the look of the older dreadnoughts. I'd really like some feedback on how to equip them (as well as any other feedback of course). I also really like the idea of using the Stormraven to drop an ironclad dreadnought up near the fight. From what I have read people don't seem to use it much because it spends so long getting up into combat. It seems like this may be an ok way to get it into position. If the Inquisition detachment doesn't work or if they change the point costs or whatever, I plan to build out a more typical list (bladeguard veterans etc). For now I really love the Jokaero and this is the list I can actually make use of 3, so even though it is probably not the best, it does have lots of space orangutans and that is a win in my book.
I really welcome your feedback, I've been trying to read up as best I can but would really like to hear what you think. As this is my first army I don't really know what will work vs. what looks good on paper.Anyway thanks again, I'm really excited to start playing.
As with most armies that are built on a niche ruling. It will all most likely come down within few a weeks, or some other sort of ruling on how the rules interact.
As it sits, I don't really see the reason for running inquisition with Iron Hands myself.
I can be honest and say that it looks interesting.
I'd stack an Ironclad in there somewhere, or even a Chaplain Dreadnought. Thanks to being Iron Hands, dreadnought characters are not a far fetched thing for you.
One has to wonder. Do the Tyranids consider drop-assault troops... fast food?
Thank you for your feedback. I agree that it is very subject to a rules change and I plan on building out a more normal iron hands list as I go. Right now the point of the acolytes is they can take meltaguns for no extra cost, so they seem like a cheap way to get them (9 points). They also will hopefully sit behind my stormraven, drop pod and other things like Jokaero and can't be targeted unless they are the closest unit (with the psychic veil). So I string the other units in front of them so they will hopefully live long enough for me to get some use out of them. The other reason I'm running inquisition for now is partially just because I love the Jokaero
I do have an ironclad that is upgraded to be a character in the list and and I would like to run a chaplain dreadnought but I thought they were legends. I plan on using "Student of warfare" to help keep him alive and putting him in the Stormraven.
Thank you again for your feedback. I really appreciate it. I defiantly hear you on the riskiness of a rule change destroying the usefulness of psychic veil, but I can always use an inquisitor as a cheap cp farmer (with esoteric lore) and then I think I can pivot into a normal iron hands list later. Anyway, thanks again.
OK. As I read the list its apparent its not the win at any cost in any way list I immediately thought it might be, so I will give you my best advice to tighten it for competitive play.
Consider making 6 acolytes plasma rather than melta. I would expect the rate of fire issue to be relevant with your attacks against the enemy. Also, I would consider strongly making your warlord a jokaro, which is just funny, but also highly functional in malleus/psyker point of view.
Spoiler:
You heard me. A brain-monkeigh. Cause you can give any inquisitor in your army "arbiter of the emperor's will" for 1 cp that grants him both a relic and a warlord trait. Pick the malleus "extra psyker power, denial, and cast" warlord trait for him. Then spend a second cp to grant him alpha psyker status "extra power known and an extra deny".
Your 60 point psyker now can cast 2 times and deny 3, and knows smite, something like warding incantation, and TWO other spells.
But your warlord monkeigh? "Brainchimp" has charater status and its not illegal to be a warlord. So he gets a warlord trait (malleus "extra psy power known, extra cast, extra deny" and isn't that special, that means he is rocking TWO spells known cause you give him alpha psyker as well (-1 cp).
you now can cast 3 spells in your little army, and deny 4, plus you can use the iron hands strategem for a crazy 4+ deny for a cp. Result? You spent a lot of cp, but your army is VERY snugged down against people who are counting on something like warptime or on something like doom. Even armies that spam smite will find that blade a bit blunted!
And you can seriously laugh as you paint your big brainmonkey (I would model him with a couple pieces of machinery grafted on his head) up as the warlord.
ok, on to the iron hands side.
Your chaptermaster is a tad overkill, and 40 points saved, if you don't chaptermaster him.
Spoiler:
Its enough to upgrade your basic dread to a venerable one as well, and shift his assault cannon (rather lackluster) for a multimelta, moving him to a 2+ to shoot. Now only your relatively few troop choices suffer the lack of the chaptermaster bonus, which could only affect one of them anyway -- so you are talking about a difference of a couple bolter hits a turn.
20 points remain to hand out, enouhg to give each intercesser squad an astartes grenade launcher (a bonus six shots into any horde) and a powersword. Or to give them each a powerfist.
You may start with low cp here, but .. you could also consider if you had a strat to cast an extra 2 smites a round that cost you 2 cp to use, and spent it twice, that's more or less your upgrades to the psykers (who can do it every turn, AND deny, AND know extra spells). So worth it just for the sheer joy of saying "this is my brainmonkeywarlord."
Building this cheaply.
Spoiler:
I would use (if you have not bought yet) the deathfields raumjager box to build the acolytes, and give 6 melta (counts as from their generous special weapons) and six plasma (they ship with 6 plasma) and 3 flamer (cause) .. meaning you can get all the acolytes for 35 bucks and still have 9 bodies left over if you ever wanted to convert the whole pile into (for example) [spoiler]
iotan gorgonnes scions
2 tempester prime with pistol
4 melta gun command squad scions
4 plasma gun command squad scions
5 troop scions with 2 melta, plasma pistol, 2 hotshotlasgun
5 troop scions with 2 plasma gun, plasma pistol, 2 hotshotlasgun
A nice little scions patrol to throw into the game, after the acolytes themselves get nerfed into oblivion with price upgrades.
Similarly, one box of marine vangaurd veterans comes with 4 storm shields and 5 bodies. You can use them to make
1 captain with stormshield
1 lieutenant (the body wiht no storm shield) with a nice chainsword
3 company veterans.
This leaves you about 50 points to play with -- enough to keep the chaptermaster effect available while still upgrading the lower dreadnaught to venerable and doing some extra shot and melee power for the 2 intercesser squads.
That's my suggestion. I know that inquisition is cheap as sin right now -- and I know what I suggest starts you with a PALTRY amount of cp (3? who starts that way?) but its also quite possible you could keep your warlord in the iron hands battalion (and thus, allow yourself 5 extra cp at start, because the brainmonkey wouldn't be anything different. Still would have the 2 cast, 3 deny, though.
Whew.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/01 04:22:14
Thank you for the feedback. I will switch 6 to plasma, that seems like a great idea. Unfortunately I don't think I can make a Jokaro a warlord. While the Jokaro are "Faction: Inquisition", they are not "Categories: Inquisitor", so I don't think it will work. Battlescribe doesn't seem to allow it. I do really love your idea though. It is very flavorful and a lot of fun.
For the ironhands feedback- I wondered if chaptermaster would be worth it with my setup. I think I will remove it, as you suggest and do some upgrades like the multimelta on the dread. I wasn't sure about that assault cannon, it looked like it might be good for fighting infantry but I'm not even sure if I need more of that since I geared the stormraven for infantry (at least I think I did). So yea, I should switch it to a multimelta, that sounds good.
I really love that you included a section for how to build the army cheaply. I was thinking about going with Delaque Gang from Necromunda for acolytes. But looking at the ones you suggested I might go with those. I do really like the idea of representing the weapons more accurately.
Thanks again for the feedback, it is always appreciated.
Making that monkey a warlord is an odd choice, but I think it legal. It just may not be in battlescribe, cause I am about the only person who thinks its a cool idea that I ever talked to. But you can make a model (it is even not necessary to be a character) your warlord, and IF its a character (monkey is!) then you may give it a warlord trait.
I just suspect it, like many of the wierdo things I pull out, is a bit outside the usual box in a game where not many people have played inquisition in a long time, and thus, battlescribe may not have noticed this possibility any more than they (probably) would have noticed the possibility of a demonhost warlord.
So it can be done -- just -- maybe they didn't program the battlescribe logic for it to do so. The rules say any model, and is a model, and there is no rule (such as with nork deddong, who specifically has the "loyal to the end" forbidding him from warlordship or a trait.) Heck you could even make a deamonhost guy into a warlord, its legal, but it would be a bit wierd.
Doesn't the inclusion of an inquisitor AND acolytes cause you to forfeit the doctrines of the Iron Hands?
It was my understand you could include 1x unit with the agents of the imperium without breaking the doctrines, and both acolytes and the inquisitor each have this keyword.
If I am wrong I will be very happy personally as I want to run an inquisitor with a few acolytes for fun in my marine list, but I thought I could only take the inquisitor.
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
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You are correct only to a point Agent of the imperium is the keyword that inquistors and assassins both share. The acolytes and jokaro lack the agent of the imperium keyword entirely. The Inquisitors agent of the imperium rule also casues them to break doctrine if you include that inquisitor in any way other than 1 agent of the imperium per battalion, brigade, or patrol. So if you have 2 patrols of space marines, you can include 2 lone inquisitors (one per patrol), or 1 inquisitor and 1 assassin, or 2 assassins, with doctrine intact.
Including the agents of the imperium in their own detachment would break doctrine, so no devastator, assault, or tactical phase, and it would break superdoctrine, so no reroll 1's for iron hands heavy weapons in devastator phase, no firing infantry heavy weapons without penalty (in dev phase).
It does not affect chapter abilities, to be clear, a detachment of pure iron hands will still have a six feel no pain and the ability to function as if at double wounds remaining for degradation of vehicle purposes.
Consider, however, the army he picked. Cause he did a good job designing it to work more or less without any doctrines in the marine side at all. Designing a good marine army to soup in other stuff is a tiny trick -- just don't build it around the idea that your huge pile of ap nothing bolters or chainswords are going to do all the work with the bonus 1 ap. Give the troops lightning claws, rather than the free (but less ap) chainswords, or give them powerfists and thunderhammers. Take elites that spam high ap weapons like plasma intercepters rather than elites that spam bolterfire. Sterngaurd veterans, plasma incepters, hellblasters, all are on the menu more than usual.
Look hard at the incursor unit for a troop choice -- as it has the magic power to ignore cover, that has the effect of giving it a doctrine upgrade compared to a lot of the bolterfire out there. Similarly, centurion bolterfire ignores cover as well -- so if you are pouring centurion fire into a target (and since they are not core, you may as well bring that librarian rather than a core buffer) the target is going to be making a save just like if you were using aggressors and had doctrine -- but they offset it with cover. Of course, dreadnaughts with high ap weaponry pretty much ignore doctrinal ap, get punched by a redempter out of doctrine or shot by its plasma weapon, you are still looking at ap4 wrecking someone's day. Remember in competitive play, you don't often need to hit something with more ap than needed to shift it up to its 4++ shield. (Yes, there IS a couple exceptions, like a squad of terminators with stormshields in cover, but nothing is perfect!)
In competitive play, this all is going to matter a great deal, but for a semi-competitive and semi-casual army, not so much. This list's strong ap on the 18 acolytes gives his anti-armor and anti-marine punch a solid basis to fight from quite independant of the need to have the marines in doctrine. He has a few troop choices that won't like not getting a -1ap on the tactical turn, but monstrous ironhands dreadnaugths already are hitting with a great deal of ap in most of their weapons and all melee, so really, he isn't losing much of his actual punch and my read on it is the list will still hold up well in a tournament (maybe not winning the las vegas open) with the mix he has.
This may not reassure you about your own mix -- but with a bit of care, you can build a list like
Inquisition detachment like he has it -- inquisitor has a combimelta.
Space marines detachment (This doesn't HAVE to be iron hands, )
some officer who can give core rerolls of 1
some other officer who can cast 2 psyker things a turn.
3 x 5 incursors (cause they ignore cover, which is a "soft" point of ap for free, and they can ignore minuses to hit. So they are a solid b+ infantry choice that already has a point of ap on all their melee fight. Outside doctrine, they are my strong preference as a result.)
6 plasma incepters
10 vangaurd vets with 10 light claws and 10 stormshields (not perfectly effective but pretty darn so)
2 redempter dreadnaughts. Go with the heavy plasma weapons for range and power.
6 hellblasters cause that's how many points you have left.
Its a fairly compact army that lets you bring in your inquistion force -- and does not give much up for no ap to speak of. (I allocated 210 points for 2 officers, maybe like a phobos captain and a phobos librarian, so you can run decent psykers.) Sure, my VERY competitive friends will make comments like "you don't have quite enough melee kill pressure for the top tables at las vegas open" or "ork hordes may be a problem for you, you are soft on hordekill". Whatever! This isn't supposed to win at vegas and would do pretty well against a lot of armies in tourney play locally. Consider that you have multiple styles of psyker active (one marine, one inquisition) and concievably this will save you if you run into a ctan shard nighbringer (otherwise a real nightmare to bring down with the 3 point per phase limit, and the ability to regenerate a point each command phase). Now you can whack him with jaws of the wolf, or something, and with castigate, and then snipe him with 6 meltas just to be sure, and then charge him with all your vangaurd vets. Potentially, you bring him down in one turn. Yes, the doctrinal marine army has better AP on its bolters, but this army has some pretty damn good synergies built in too.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/02 13:16:03
Well, that didn't last long. Looks like todays update added in the weapon costs for acolytes. So I will likely go back to the idea of using a single drop pod like the goonhammer article described.
https://www.goonhammer.com/index-inquisition-the-goonhammer-review/ (It's at the bottom of the article)
It seems like a shame though, I was hoping to put a bit of a new spin on the tactic instead of copying their version. It is a bit less exciting to give up doctrines for 6 meltas that have a weird targeting trick. I imagine it isn't really worth it but I'll still give it a try. I could run the stormraven still I guess and just cut the drop pod. Is the stormraven worth running if I am using it for an ironhands dreadnought and its other transport abilities or should I just cut it and run a regular drop pod and a dreadnought drop pod? I'm also thinking of cutting the lieutenant, for the same reasons as dropping chapter master from my captain. I don't seem to be benefiting much from the lieutenant, so I wonder if a librarian or chaplain would be better.
Also in a jab that feels like it was directed at me and like 6 other players total, they raised the cost of acolytes from 9 to 10. Seriously, how many people run acolytes?
If the stormraven is decent firepower for cost I'll run something like the previous list minus the drop pod. The transport would look something like this
1 inquisitor
6 acolytes with meltas
1 jokaro
1 acolyte with no weapon upgrades
1 acolyte with no weapon upgrades
1 captain
1 techmarine
1 ironclad dreadnought
If the stormraven isn't good enough to run, I'll go one drop pod with
1 inquisitor
6 acolytes with meltas
1 jokaro
1 acolyte with no weapon upgrades
1 acolyte with no weapon upgrades
With the extra points I'll probably put them into bladeguard or something. I'm not sure I'll have to work that out once I figure up how many points I have left over. I guess the good news is that they made this update before I purchased anything. Though I knew it was possible they changed it at some point I guess it is better sooner than later. Anyway, thanks everyone for the feedback as always. You guys are great. Do you think I should go stormraven or drop pod (I know the sane answer is neither, cut the inquisition, but if you had to humor me). Thanks again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/04 22:15:29
So, expensive though it is, the basic inquistion force of
1 inquisitor (a great deal at 70 points, 2 cast, 3 spells known, fully upgraded psyker malleus) .. shooting a combimelta or combigrav off like there is no tomorrow.
6 acolytes with 6 combimelta, or for straight up murder someone's tank)
1 jokaro
1 other jokaro
230 points total
300 with drop pod,
The inquisition can still do at least one fairly good and competitive trick -- psychic pursuit and an enemy officer (perhaps one costing as much as 180 points) is DEAD. Even a deathgaurd one doesn't want to be hit with 5 melta shots, rerolling even all wounds, and ap-4. You aren't going to use this little pack as a mainline group, you wouldn't (for example) land it and try to take out a pile of stormshielded terminators (because you die on the return) but it WOULD work fairly well as a sniper that wipes out their apothecary before your team sets in to try to kill their whole pile.
But is it drop pod or traditional transport? Do you want to strategic reserve in and shoot immediately with 6 plasma at range (still a pretty darn good sniper group) or do you want to drop in close and hope the enemy can't auspex scan (which would kill the acolytes, frankly, and leave the lonely inquisitor firing his one melta as a sniper).
Or do you want to have the flyer in position to drop these guys?
There are arguments for all of them BUT.
The flyer + inquisitor + 6 acolytes is an incredibly expensive unit that doesn't get any more resilient just because its carrying 200 points of inquistion. A competent enemy will just kill it and then wipe the floor with the 6 acolytes, leaving your inquisitor alone and vulnerable.
So that option is not bad but it is ... situational.
In semi to fully competitive play, everyone can more or less kill one large knight a turn at minimum, and this means your flyer, with no invuln shields, and only a -1 to be hit (there are many ways aroudn that) is easy meat.
Gaurd flyers work better because they can move in from great range and disgorge troops that can shoot the same turn, much like a cross between your flyer and your drop pod could.
Dukeofstuff wrote: So, expensive though it is, the basic inquistion force of
1 inquisitor (a great deal at 70 points, 2 cast, 3 spells known, fully upgraded psyker malleus) .. shooting a combimelta or combigrav off like there is no tomorrow.
6 acolytes with 6 combimelta, or for straight up murder someone's tank)
1 jokaro
1 other jokaro
230 points total
300 with drop pod,
The inquisition can still do at least one fairly good and competitive trick -- psychic pursuit and an enemy officer (perhaps one costing as much as 180 points) is DEAD. Even a deathgaurd one doesn't want to be hit with 5 melta shots, rerolling even all wounds, and ap-4. You aren't going to use this little pack as a mainline group, you wouldn't (for example) land it and try to take out a pile of stormshielded terminators (because you die on the return) but it WOULD work fairly well as a sniper that wipes out their apothecary before your team sets in to try to kill their whole pile.
But is it drop pod or traditional transport? Do you want to strategic reserve in and shoot immediately with 6 plasma at range (still a pretty darn good sniper group) or do you want to drop in close and hope the enemy can't auspex scan (which would kill the acolytes, frankly, and leave the lonely inquisitor firing his one melta as a sniper).
Or do you want to have the flyer in position to drop these guys?
There are arguments for all of them BUT.
The flyer + inquisitor + 6 acolytes is an incredibly expensive unit that doesn't get any more resilient just because its carrying 200 points of inquistion. A competent enemy will just kill it and then wipe the floor with the 6 acolytes, leaving your inquisitor alone and vulnerable.
So that option is not bad but it is ... situational.
In semi to fully competitive play, everyone can more or less kill one large knight a turn at minimum, and this means your flyer, with no invuln shields, and only a -1 to be hit (there are many ways aroudn that) is easy meat.
Gaurd flyers work better because they can move in from great range and disgorge troops that can shoot the same turn, much like a cross between your flyer and your drop pod could.
Yeah, unless you had a very specific juicy target that will reap more than 300pts back when you destroy it, it is seems like an unsound investment over say, 300pts worth of iron hands. You can get 2x3 squads of eradicators for less than that and they pump out nearly twice as many melta shots, are arguably more durable and can be made to be even more so with stratagems etc etc.
Fun idea but totally inefficient and arguably no longer worth the fun factor of it, even in a semi-competitive/fun list. I can imagine it will get boring watching your suicide squad get one turn a game.
Wouldn't converted scions and a tempestus prime to look like an inquisitor and acolytes be more cost efficient, whilst still giving you the flavour of what you want to achieve?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/05 11:49:39
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