Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
This isn't even developed enough to put in proposed rules, it's just a vague idea right now.
As a way of balancing marines, and to reflect the in game reality of them, i was thinking a way to balance marines against most other armies would be to give marine armies a rule that basically gave any non marine players victory points for inflicting significant marines casualties. SMs are supposed to be a very small force on the galactic tabletop, and very precious. These would be above and beyond any normal points in the mission.
Thematically it seems to fit the SM idea, and there was a 40k comic series called bloodquest that dealt with a BA captain being exiled for winning a battle with huge losses to his company. Also we've had since the first book stories about how hard it is to rebuild a chapter after it's taken massive losses, like the crimson fists in the very first battle on rynn's world.
Plus the ultramarines suffered long term effects of losing the first company defending macragge during the first major action against the nids.
So maybe a special rule about enemy forces getting bonus points for taking out marines in large numbers would fit.
of course i don't see it happening as gw would have to evolve and playtest the rules for what % of the marines have to go down to get bonus points, and some players would complain about it being too complex, and Matt Ward would hear of it, scream in rage at the thought of ultramarines having a (GASP!) disadvantage, chew thru his straightjacket and launch an assault on GWHQ to stop this sacrilege from happening, etc.
Nonetheless i think it could be a nice balance issue and fit the SM meme.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/15 07:16:49
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
I don't think the issue with marines is that everything they have now is over the top, some units you could argue are. It's more their out of this world release schedule. Even if you could kick their rears you'll need to pray to all the Gods old and new to see new models for your faction at this point as Marines run rough shod over every other faction with releases.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Third this. This is a discussion that doesn't make sense until most of the release cycle is complete.
The issue is the release process, not marines.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Wasn't this recently covered in that "anti-Elite secondary" thread? Or were you meaning an additional bonus on top of that?
I'm kinda in favour of the Secondary, subject to how it ended up being structured (and if it ended up with all Kill secondaries in the same category), but not in favour of an arbitrary bonus on top of that.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Yeah, how about no. There are marine armies that have win rates under 40%, they don't need help in the form of their opponents getting extra VP. Also I assume the rule would tick for armies like DG, and csm too.
It would be interesting to see, how it would be balanced for harlequins though. They have the highest win ratio of all armies, are super powerful vs marines, and now they would be getting even more, and for free too.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
One thing that could have been interesting (if implemented from the start) if instead of just the codex secondaries for the army, there had always been antisecondaries in there that opponents could pick.
Marines aren't OP so if you nerf them they'll just become a free win for anybody but the absolute worst armies. I get that Marines being such a large portion of the release schedule and metagame can be annoying to some people but that's reality and nerfing them because of that doesn't solve anything.
There are no problem with marines. Unless of course you mean THOSE marines. My marines are of course not THOSE marines. However as along as my marines are not THOSE marines there is no problem. Just wait and see.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/15 19:47:54
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
There are no problem with marines. Unless of course you mean THOSE marines. My marines are of course not THOSE marines. However as along as my marines are not THOSE marines there is no problem. Just wait and see.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
There are no problem with marines. Unless of course you mean THOSE marines. My marines are of course not THOSE marines. However as along as my marines are not THOSE marines there is no problem. Just wait and see.
Capt Obvious!
I'm not playing my Salamanders this edition due to them making the perfect Salamander unit redonkulous OP.
2) For that rule to make thematical sense, you would have to get double those points against CWE and Harlequins.
There are probably about 10-20 billion eldar and ~100 billion dark eldar. Compared to 1 million marines, the most hilariously overhyped special forces in fiction since the one freaking halo guy.
Maybe for harlequins, since there are ???? of them. Unspecified smallish number.
Daily reminder that if all loyalist marines were gathered in one place and had to fight all the Tau, they'd be utterly flattened by the 1:10,000 numerical advantage.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
There are no problem with marines. Unless of course you mean THOSE marines. My marines are of course not THOSE marines. However as along as my marines are not THOSE marines there is no problem. Just wait and see.
Capt Obvious!
I'm not playing my Salamanders this edition due to them making the perfect Salamander unit redonkulous OP.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Dolnikan wrote: One thing that could have been interesting (if implemented from the start) if instead of just the codex secondaries for the army, there had always been antisecondaries in there that opponents could pick.
I can tell you how this works. If the secondary stacks with other, then you end up with something like abhore the witch. Specialy post change it turned in to objective which does not generate enough VP points comparing to other armies, unless you happen to play one of those two armies that have practicaly every unit in the army give the VP, which makes it just as good as it was before the supposed fix.
If that were to happen to just space marines, you may as well play either with a handicap and play with a minus one secondary to pick, or if all armies were to have a anti them secondary, just play with a minus one secondary over all.
There are probably about 10-20 billion eldar and ~100 billion dark eldar. Compared to 1 million marines, the most hilariously overhyped special forces in fiction since the one freaking halo guy.
And yet demi companies of marines or even single squads of marines are able to achive things whole craftworlds can not. And chapters are able to raid and destroy entire craftworlds. As if somehow marines were just the superior combatants and eldar were good only when they are shoting you from ambush and preferably in the back.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Right, right. Outriders are absurd with 19 attacks. People are going to take 18 Eradicators. Hordes are dead. Melee will suck this edition.
The forum is full of people who don't actually play the game and/or have strong opinions that don't seem to square with reality.
January results:
I mean, you've got all sorts of differing amounts of games played per faction, the results are incredibly skewed from that and you can't draw any significant results from certain ones due to how low the amount of games are, so I don't really class that as absolute proof.
IF all armies had say 50 games each, then yes we'd have much stronger evidence of the power rankings.
Dolnikan wrote: One thing that could have been interesting (if implemented from the start) if instead of just the codex secondaries for the army, there had always been antisecondaries in there that opponents could pick.
I can tell you how this works. If the secondary stacks with other, then you end up with something like abhore the witch. Specialy post change it turned in to objective which does not generate enough VP points comparing to other armies, unless you happen to play one of those two armies that have practicaly every unit in the army give the VP, which makes it just as good as it was before the supposed fix.
If that were to happen to just space marines, you may as well play either with a handicap and play with a minus one secondary to pick, or if all armies were to have a anti them secondary, just play with a minus one secondary over all.
I'm afraid that I don't really follow this. Of course, it would have to be implemented for all armies and should have been done from the start (if it had been done) to balance out the faction secondaries. Of course, my own preference would be to significantly cut secondaries and to make missions actually different to have more variety without letting people just score free points for playing a certain matchup.
However, giving these antisecondaries might be another balancing tool that could be adjusted without having to go deep into the factions. Of course, it's also another opportunity for GW to mess things up. Which they will doubtlessly be doing. And then there is the logistical issue of opponents having to know that part of the army they're up against. But in most settings, you can just ask your opponent.
Just be patient. As history has shown us, Space Marines will be nerfed with each new Codex due to power creep. You think they are good now, then a new one comes out with is ridiculously overpowered. We're just a bit behind currently as GW slowed it's releases and went full on Space Marines for releases this edition.
The strongest codici right now are all from 8th or 8.5th.
Sisters
Harlequins
Demons
If the SM dex did show us something, is that this time GW is willing to nerf factions with dexes if there is a need.
The sister codex is probably not far off in the future, and I expect some nerf in it. Probably a toning down of bloody rose and an harsher penalty for souping.
Right, right. Outriders are absurd with 19 attacks. People are going to take 18 Eradicators. Hordes are dead. Melee will suck this edition.
The forum is full of people who don't actually play the game and/or have strong opinions that don't seem to square with reality.
January results:
OMG! Crimson Fists are OP! Let's all switch armies!
Yep lets just completely gloss over 4 out of top ten armies are some colour of space marine.. You present data and parade it like some sort of win? Then just ignore the obvious...
This certainly does not mean other things like KOS/SIsters needs a bit of a reeling in... By all means guys just snark away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/16 18:56:00
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Yep lets just completely gloss over 4 out of top ten armies are some colour of space marine.. You present data and parade it like some sort of win?
Then just ignore the obvious...
Yea one is Crimson Fists with a 3-1-1 record at one tournament. WOOOO. I'm gettin' the vapors.
I'll also bet you that the vast majority of those use little to no Eradicators.
Yep lets just completely gloss over 4 out of top ten armies are some colour of space marine.. You present data and parade it like some sort of win?
Then just ignore the obvious...
Yea one is Crimson Fists with a 3-1-1 record at one tournament. WOOOO. I'm gettin' the vapors.
I'll also bet you that the vast majority of those use little to no Eradicators.
Oh and the deathwatch, space wolves and BT. yeah lets ignore those too. Those are not THOSE marines.
Once the DA codex drops in ernest im sure no issues.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eldar- 4436 pts
