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So the only slot that most Marines factions are completely missing is a LoW that isn't a unique character.

But with all the new units SM have got I think creating a brand new unit would be overkill. At the same time the Landraider is often seen as not living up to the legend it should be.

To cover both I'd like to propose the following changes based on the standard Land Raider. If you have suggestions for the weapons of other variants please add your comments below.

Iron might - increase the toughness to 9, it can only be wounded on a 3+ and it can't be moved/throw by any attackers.
My thinking her is that most anti tank weapons will now only be wounding a land raider on a 4+/5+ anyway but it takes into account a few of the of LoW weapons (V-cannons etc).
It also removed the oddity of seeing an Imperial/Chaos knight being able to throw a land raider. Only Titan's should be that strong.

Emperor's Wrath - the Landraider can make it's full attacks against one infantry/bike unit it moves over without being locked in combat. A Landraider can not be locked in combat.

Weapons - Godhammer Lascannons Str increase to 10, AP-4 and Damage 3D3
Hull turret weapons count as Rapid fire (so Heavy bolters become Rapid Fire 6) to represent the higher ammo capacity of the tank and the support of its machine spirit. This could work with the Crusader/Redeemer Assault Cannon as well.

So this would fill the only gap in the SM/DG/TS/CG lists while not taking time and resources away from other faction and would (hopefully) breath some lift back into a unit that needs some love.

Just give it the old Assault Ramp rule, models can disembark after it moves with no penalty, and it'll already be worth it.

Wouldn't bother changing the hull weapons but I do like the idea of the uber-Las.

Yeah, SMs need a dakka boat with T9 like Custodes need a 4+++. Gimme a break. SM's have no need for a LoW, they already have some of the strongest units in the game.

As much as I'd love to use my land raider again I don't think there's much you can do with it other than make it totally useless or over powered.

Make it T9, too tough. Drop its points, auto include.

LR's just need the assault ramp rule back. I'd also give them the ability to ignore all modifiers to hit except for supersonic (machine spirit).

Are land raiders still considered "bad?" A standard land raider with a multi-melta costs 15 points more than a triple dark lance and triple dissintegrator ravager combined (so the same as two triple dizzy ravagers). For those extra 15 points, you get...

* 6 anti tank shots (4 from lascannons and 2 from the multi-melta). So comparable firepower to 2 dark lance ravagers right there.

* 12 heavy bolter shots, comparable to 4 dissintegrator cannons, albeit with worse AP).

* T8, meaning that many dedicated anti tank weapons are wounding you on 4+ instead of 3+, most small arms are wounding you on 6+, and mid-strength weapons like autocannons are wounding you on 5+.

* A 2+ armor save, which means that you're saving as well as or better than my ravager against any shots that aren't at least AP-4. (The ravager has a 5+ invul.)

*You have the transport capacity of a rhino (or one of my raiders) on top of that.

* You have the smoke keyword meaning you can make the land raider -1 to hit for 1CP. The same stratagem on a ravager costs 2CP.

* The physical model itself is large and solid enough to block line of sight to a lot of other models in the range. So you can use the land raider to shield other units from enemy fire if needed.

The ravagers are easier to move around thanks to the Fly keyword (though the land raider has the same starting Movement), and the land raider has fewer totalwounds. But that still seems like a lot of advantages over one of the more popular units in the drukhari codex in a similar role.

The land raider costs about as much as two ravagers, but its fire power is comparable to 3 ravagers while also having way better defensive stats (except total wounds), better use of defensive strats (-1 to hit on all 16 wounds of land raider vs -1 to hit on 10 wounds worth of ravager), and having a transport capacity to boot. You can even toss on a hunter-killer and a storm bolter if you're feeling cute.

What am I missing? Is the land raider actually bad, or just less good than other marine units?

I find it hilarious that a LR can transport Custodes, but not Primaris.

Wyldhunt wrote:


What am I missing? Is the land raider actually bad, or just less good than other marine units?

You miss nothing. The LR is a decent option in a codex full of cheese.

I've played my LR in the entire 8th edition and also in 9th (before the restrictions introduced in december made gaming impossible), never regretted it. SM are so good that a few non broken units are actually a godsend for keeping the game healthy. Now I only play trueborn marines, SW actually, and I really enjoy it.

Without any primaris/gravis nonsense units like LRs may have a purpose and trueborn marines are strong enough to be on par against anything. Except against other overpowered marines of course, but I refuse to play SM vs SM anyway, since I started 20+ years ago.

The crusader has 40 anti infantry shots and can carry 16 dudes (which means 32+ wounds of static models), enough to tear an horde unit apart.

Thanks everyone,

The idea was more that the only gap in the SM list is a standard LoW.

With the large numbers of units we already have I was thinking that the Land Raider was a suitable transfer/upgrade to the slot.

Being a LoW might also be a good argument to let it transport 10 Primaris/5 Gravis

ScarVet101 wrote:
Thanks everyone,

The idea was more that the only gap in the SM list is a standard LoW.

With the large numbers of units we already have I was thinking that the Land Raider was a suitable transfer/upgrade to the slot.

Being a LoW might also be a good argument to let it transport 10 Primaris/5 Gravis

In that case, I feel this might be a "you could, but should you?" situation. Moving it to a LoW slot would make the land raider harder to field and thus less desirable. As I pointed out above, it kind of seems like the LR is pretty okay as-is, so adding a detachment/CP tax to it seems unnecessary. Just because the LoW slot exists doesn't mean that you necessarily need (or want) something to fill it.

Most transports could reasonably carry primaris. That's just a weird state of affairs that could easily be fixed but so far hasn't been. The cynic in me says that's only the case to encourage impulsor sales.

And loyalists already have NINE available LoWs. The 3rd greatest number of any faction behind CSM and Imperial Guard respectively.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And loyalists already have NINE available LoWs. The 3rd greatest number of any faction behind CSM and Imperial Guard respectively.

Yes, but all are forgeworld and only 2 of them are not Relic vehicles (I am excluding Bobby G as he's a unique LoW)

ScarVet101 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And loyalists already have NINE available LoWs. The 3rd greatest number of any faction behind CSM and Imperial Guard respectively.

Yes, but all are forgeworld and only 2 of them are not Relic vehicles (I am excluding Bobby G as he's a unique LoW)

If you don't want to use a fw model why not just proxy the Land Raider as a Spartan? Would save the trouble of writing new rules for it. The model for the Spartan is only a little bigger than a Land Raider.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

ScarVet101 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
And loyalists already have NINE available LoWs. The 3rd greatest number of any faction behind CSM and Imperial Guard respectively.

Yes, but all are forgeworld and only 2 of them are not Relic vehicles (I am excluding Bobby G as he's a unique LoW)

If you don't want to use a fw model why not just proxy the Land Raider as a Spartan? Would save the trouble of writing new rules for it. The model for the Spartan is only a little bigger than a Land Raider.

It's more to add a LoW option to the codex as there are still plenty of people who have issues with Proxy or even Forgeworld itself.

 Blackie wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


What am I missing? Is the land raider actually bad, or just less good than other marine units?

You miss nothing. The LR is a decent option in a codex full of cheese.

Spoiler:

I've played my LR in the entire 8th edition and also in 9th (before the restrictions introduced in december made gaming impossible), never regretted it. SM are so good that a few non broken units are actually a godsend for keeping the game healthy. Now I only play trueborn marines, SW actually, and I really enjoy it.

Without any primaris/gravis nonsense units like LRs may have a purpose and trueborn marines are strong enough to be on par against anything. Except against other overpowered marines of course, but I refuse to play SM vs SM anyway, since I started 20+ years ago.

The crusader has 40 anti infantry shots and can carry 16 dudes (which means 32+ wounds of static models), enough to tear an horde unit apart.

Best tank in the universe imho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I find it hilarious that a LR can transport Custodes, but not Primaris.

I used to be salty about the restriction on restartes, but now I am happy to have zero reason and less inclination to have anything to do with restartes.

Makes about as much sense as putting the Monolith in the same Role, and they didn't really do much to improve its power to match its 3rd ed version.