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Landraiders or Baneblades? The only reason I ask is because in the books it talks about how the priests of Mars revere the Baneblades as almost minor gods, lost STCs with the ability to be almost titan engines as far as glory is concerned.

Are Landraiders treated the same or are those more, Mass produced transports?

Just wondering which ranks higher in the "it's a sacrilege to harm one" meter.

Land Raider. They're rarer & more advanced than the Baneblade, plus the Arkhan Land connection.

"More sacred?.... Hersey!"

They can't be more rare I thought, because they still have STCs for the LRs. The baneblades and Shadowswords are dying out, because they've lost the STCs for them. Once the forges on Mars stop working, Baneblades will die out. Did I misread this in the series?

Probably the Baneblade, as Land Raiders are reserved for the Adeptus Astartes. As such, it would be relatively rare by comparison for Adeptus Mechanicus to ever work on a Land Raider.

There’s also likely far, far more Baneblades out there in the Galaxy. And when one needs a refurb or rebuild, it’s a Forgeworld that gets to do it. This means that many Baneblades claimed to be centuries old are more like Trigger’s Broom.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
They can't be more rare I thought, because they still have STCs for the LRs. The baneblades and Shadowswords are dying out, because they've lost the STCs for them. Once the forges on Mars stop working, Baneblades will die out. Did I misread this in the series?

Which series? They definitely still have the STC on multiple forge worlds, and there are multiple variants - Mars, Lucius, Estaban VII...
(Do Ryza & Arkurian do Baneblades, or just Shadowswords?)

It's a series literally called Baneblade, it's two books, Baneblade and Shadowsword. And I swear I thought one of the early parts was about how the "holy" forges of Mars has spent the last 1000 years cranking out these "Lost relics of a bygone era" or some such prose. Basically Mars lost the STC to a certain type of Baneblade, and while it's still making them, they are a lost art form, and each one is precious. Maybe not Nova Cannon precious, or other HH tech precious, but Mars still guards their stock with intense furor. Even so much so to argue with the Imperial General who wants to "sacrifice a Shadowsword" to take down a Chaos Warhound.

Considering the epilogue of one of those books has the tank commander and tech priest on hand to name a replacement Baneblade as it comes off the line they are still being made.

Some patterns are inferior. Some parts can only be replaced with weaker versions. But the Baneblade itself is still being produced by several forge worlds.

Veldrain wrote:
Considering the epilogue of one of those books has the tank commander and tech priest on hand to name a replacement Baneblade as it comes off the line they are still being made.

Some patterns are inferior. Some parts can only be replaced with weaker versions. But the Baneblade itself is still being produced by several forge worlds.

Yes, they are still cranking them out, but the STC has been lost, and the Forge is entirely automated. So if the forge breaks, oh well. They cannot build new forges like the ones on Mars. This is an imperium wide problem. The original STCs for most of the HH era tech is toast. Including I think the Model 1.0 Astartes bolter right?

I think you misunderstand what STCs are. STCs are described as a machine that takes the resources needed, and builds the final product without further work needed (at least that was how they were discribed in the 5th ed brb which was my first real venture into the setting). So basically they are the forges and yes the Mechanicus can't build more of these, but it was like that for the last about 15.000 years.
The Baneblades are rare because the number of STCs is so low and that's the case for the Land Raiders as well.

One could make a case for the Raider because of its advanced Machine Spirit but iirc the baneblade have these aswell and personally don't know how advanced that one is.

Oh, I literally thought it was a design template, like a blueprint. That makes sense now, because in the Gaunt book, when they find the STC under the battlefield pumping out "SPOILERS" it's a giant machine.

STCs have been described as the blueprint, the database and the manufacturing device. All versions have been described since rogue trader and GW haven’t chosen one definition as far as I am aware

However it doesn’t matter anymore because since the introduction of primaris GW have decided that the imperium can research and develop totally new technology so there’s no reason why the mechanic is can’t re invent or reverse engineer the bane blade and land raider. Or invent the replacement which is invent ale as the land raider doesn’t transport primaris (does it)? So they won’t be sacred for much longer

It's inconsistent, but the fluff usually makes a distinction between STC (the machine) and STC fragments (the schematics).

If the Mechanicus actually had access to a fully functioning STC, they could use it to generate blueprints for anything they want. In that case, humanity's level of technology would be a lot closer to what it was during the dark age of technology.

I've always read the STC as a big ass 3D printer which was used in the DAoT to produce whatever the colonists needed on their new planet. In 40k, the forgeworlds have either these very things or similar analogues, however the blueprints and databases are what are mainly lost, so they head out hunting for those. Because finding those allows production. Isn't that what Arkhan Land went out hunting for underneath Mars and found the land raider designs? Both the manufacturing device STC and the STC "blueprint" or databases are super rare and vital, but arguably the datafiles are moreso. Other manufacturing methods exist, but you need those blueprints to do it.

To answer the OP's question, I think while the Baneblade is highly praised by the techpriests that work on them, the land raider is that bit extra special. The vaunted machine spirit inside them is like a mini AI.

 Olthannon wrote:
I've always read the STC as a big ass 3D printer which was used in the DAoT to produce whatever the colonists needed on their new planet.

The core STC systems are a database mankinds technology alongside an AI interface. Colonists would tell their STC what they want and what they have available and the AI would construct blueprints telling them how to build it - which would include blueprints on how to construct any factories or tools they needed along the way.

The STC fragments they collect are bits and pieces of those blueprints that have survived.

So which is more in danger of being lost? Baneblades or LRs?

And for the last time, stop complaining about Primaris. They're here and they aren't going anywhere, so we can get over it or we can exhaust ourselves hating their dumb plot logic. I stopped hating them. Now if they come out with Primaris Custodes I will cut the design team in half with a ninja sword.

Neither, as a general class of vehicle

Specific patterns, like the Mars-alpha baneblade or land raider Achilles, maybe.

Certainly the Custodes' extra blingy Land Raiders being called 'venerable' implies they're a no-longer-built pattern.

A.T. wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
I've always read the STC as a big ass 3D printer which was used in the DAoT to produce whatever the colonists needed on their new planet.

The core STC systems are a database mankinds technology alongside an AI interface. Colonists would tell their STC what they want and what they have available and the AI would construct blueprints telling them how to build it - which would include blueprints on how to construct any factories or tools they needed along the way.

The STC fragments they collect are bits and pieces of those blueprints that have survived.

That's how I understand it too. It doesn't help that STC is often used interchangeably to mean the blueprint or the database or the actual construction device itself. What's interesting about this is, if there was an AI at the heart of the full STC system, what would the Mechanicus reaction be to finding an intact one given the Imperium's and AdMech's attitude towards AI?

I don't think the question of which is more sacred out of two vehicles makes much sense. The AdMech seem to revere anything and everything from the simple toaster all the way up to fusion reactors and Titans. It's also hard to take seriously any implication that certain machines are "dying out" or in danger of being lost given the scale of the 40k universe and how GW's core business model is selling miniatures. So the answer to the OP's question is likely neither are more endangered or more sacred.

The AI can't be in the STC, if the STC is building AIs as in Gaunt's book. but that is real world logic on a book with space nazis and space monsters made of rape and bud light seltzer.

Nothing precludes AI building further AI, we've seen it with Skynet.
The STC in "First and Only" is one specifically designed to create Men of Iron that has been corrupted by Chaos. The Men of Iron were made to be self-sustaining after humanity got lazy, they rebelled and were the first step in the fall of Mankind.
An STC is just a catch-all term for the things mankind used to conquer the stars in ye' olden' dayes'. One might be a blueprint for a mug and another might be, like in the "Gaunt's Ghosts" book, a huge machine that builds murder robots. The Imperium doesn't have a fully functioning STC anywhere and each one only has a set of blueprints which is why when a new STC is found it's such a big deal.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The AI can't be in the STC, if the STC is building AIs as in Gaunt's book.

Nah, there's nothing that stops AIs building other AIs. It's one of the theorised technological singularities, in fact.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The baneblades and Shadowswords are dying out, because they've lost the STCs for them.

https://youtu.be/cno-_CM0yyU?t=57

 Irbis wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The baneblades and Shadowswords are dying out, because they've lost the STCs for them.

https://youtu.be/cno-_CM0yyU?t=57

By that logic, I give you the most Cannon of all lore arguments....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRN_yfDgqT8